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  1. #1
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    Please Explain To Me How This Is support To Work

    I recently started a thread with the title " Reproduction Window Stickers" In it I posted a pic of the product I had got from someone that is not a site supporter. I gave his name and email address along with what he charged me. I started this thread so that if someone else wanted a reproduction window sticker in the future. A simple search would most likely bring this thread up. That way the next person that was looking for something like this wouldn't have to go thru five pages of posts to find it like I did. I mite even have found this guy on the other viper Club Site. It took some time.

    A few days later I get an email from Plum the moderator that my post was edited. He removed the price and contact info from my thread due to the person not being a site supporter. Now please read below as I copied this right from the home page of this club.

    Our goal is simply to help Viper owners have a more enjoyable ownership experience by providing a community environment to share Viper passion with other owners.

    I am a member of this club so doesn't that mean that I am a site supporter. I posted some info that made my ownership experience more enjoyable and I wanted to share it with other Viper owners. I see other posts that give detailed info on where to get parts or pcs that are from companies that don't support this site and they don't get edited. Between the very real Viper Tax and the piss poor support we as owners get from Dodge in general we are left with a club forum that, well to put it simply is looking out for who every write them a check and becomes a "Site Supporter" I have had dealing with a few of the "Site Supporters" of this club that frankly where less than enjoyable. Please before someone jumps on here and starts with the high cost of R&D and the limited market stuff. To those people I would just like to say if your business plan was to make a living from working on or making parts for Vipers only. You mite want to rethink that. You are dealing with a very small and finite market in the first place remember. I would be willing to bet that a great deal of this high cost R&D was most likely learned thru customer funded projects anyway.

    I didn't mean to go off an a rant but hears one last thing I don't understand and that would be to be a member of this club you must own a Viper. Now I think it's great that anybody can view this forum and not be an owner or even a member. But why is that there is a large number of people that have a large number of posts that one ether don't even own a Viper or two are not willing to pay to be a member and support this club. Sure I guess I could block anybody's post I didn't want to read. But I shouldn't have to I payed my membership to be able to be here. I didn't join this club to be part of something bigger. I pay my membership to promote this forum and the information with in it. Am I missing something?
    Last edited by TheMadMachinist; 05-24-2017 at 04:24 AM.
    2000 GTS built/Paxton:Sold
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  2. #2
    Scott Grayson
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    Not to flatter Plum, though he's right there as one of my BFF's, but forum moderation is a major PIA and his decisions are well considered. NO ONE enjoys having their expressions of thought, opinions and interest edited or deleted. As part of our moderator group, we are KEENLY aware of this, which is why we seldom touch posts (that and our being lazy ... well maybe not Viper Girl so much). Anyway, some forum rules are easy to enforce, but others all fall into a vast "gray" abyss of uncertainty. You should know that all the moderators here on our VOA forum have extensive experience with this linguistic and opinionated nightmare of expression.

    It almost always comes down to determining the logistics of compromise. IF we accepted your opinion and utilized your position, I'd ask you how many threads would be rendered useless with links to all kinds of suggested and "recommended" (suspect) products and services; none of which would be available via VOA trusted and accountable sponsors. How should we then deal with the many members who come to the forum to publicise their disgruntled dealings and demand reconciliation through the VOA? How would we continue to grant some value to our sponsors?

    I'm not suggesting we have all the answers nor am I/we perfectly comfortable deleting links to what often might be valuable and helpful Viper sources for info, parts, services, etc. But, we are charged with managing an "internet car enthusiast forum" and MUST therefore find and enforce certain guidelines. Most often we discuss our options before we act and virtually all of those discussions don't begin with any consensus. Nonetheless, we have to (and have been for 3 years now) enforce the "forum social culture" of the VOA, which we believe has been quite successful.

    I understand that (outside the secret mod and president's circle) our efforts may seem like a simple thing, but we mods really do live in this realm and see it all. I'm not pleased that we edited your post.

    Honestly, we never are pleased with enforcement (OK, I will admit there are rare occasions when it IS pleasing) and always seek to minimise our impact and visibility. But, our website and forum remain successful because of the work, the rules in place and the contributions (including tolerance) of our forum members and sponsors.

    Hope the previous helps.
    Last edited by City; 05-24-2017 at 12:59 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Plum sucks!
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  4. #4
    Kala Rexroad
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    In this particular case theres another issue with the Window stickers. The copies are likely a violation of the Dodge, SRT, Viper copyrights & trademarks.
    At one point we did have a discussion with the maker of these reproductions about being sponsor.

    As far as I know, the copies are being made without the permission or licensing by FCA. Which if someday Dodge/FCA decided to legally go after the numerous creators of unlicensed products for sale on the web. We wouldn't want to be stuck in the middle.

    As far as other links in threads, those shouldn't be happening either. Our General Forum rules doesn't allow those links.
    Which is a similar policy used by many other forums on the web.
    Last edited by Viper Girl; 05-24-2017 at 01:01 PM.
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  5. #5
    Scott Grayson
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsGood View Post
    Plum sucks!
    That was perfect! Too funny. Damn, that should have been the last line of my post!
    2008 SRT10 Open Roof (1 of 2)
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  6. #6
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    A forum by definition is a place for public discussion and now that we have established that this in deed is not one. How about we change the name to something a little more factual. Like perhaps the Viper Owners Association Of Circle Jurkers..
    2000 GTS built/Paxton:Sold
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  7. #7
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    So what you are telling that is if someone finds lets say a plastic push pin that holds on hood vents for $5.99 per 50 pcs. And Dodge wants to charge $1.35 each for the same part. Said person can not share this info with others freely.

    Just wanted to add that if you went to Dodge and ordered a plastic push pin for a Omni or something other than a Viper said push pin is $.15 each. These are not exact prices but I am will to bet they are not far off.
    Last edited by TheMadMachinist; 05-24-2017 at 02:07 PM.
    2000 GTS built/Paxton:Sold
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  8. #8
    Kala Rexroad
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMadMachinist View Post
    So what you are telling that is if someone finds lets say a plastic push pin that holds on hood vents for $5.99 per 50 pcs. And Dodge wants to charge $1.35 each for the same part. Said person can not share this info with others freely.

    Seriously? Push pins don't = unlicensed intellectual property...
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  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=Viper Girl;298352]In this particular case theres another issue with the Window stickers. The copies are likely a violation of the Dodge, SRT, Viper copyrights & trademarks.
    At one point we did have a discussion with the maker of these reproductions about being sponsor.

    So they didn't want to write a check so then it was a copyrights issue. I'm not understanding why you would have had a discussion in the first place if copyright violations are high on your list.
    Last edited by TheMadMachinist; 05-24-2017 at 02:28 PM.
    2000 GTS built/Paxton:Sold
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  10. #10
    Kala Rexroad
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    You're trying to make this into something I didn't say or mean.

    We did reach out to the man making these... BEFORE we realized there was a potential conflict with licensing, and wouldn't be able to offer his product anyway.

    As a machinist, I'm sure you already understand you couldn't expect to make copies of a logo/item that you are not licensing from the owner of the copyright... Then expect that owner/manufacturer to look the other way.
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  11. #11
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    I'd ask you how many threads would be rendered useless with links to all kinds of suggested and "recommended" (suspect) products and services; none of which would be available via VOA trusted and accountable sponsors. You say.

    I could tell you a couple eye opening stories about one of your sponsors that would prove he can't be trusted and he was not accountable.
    2000 GTS built/Paxton:Sold
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper Girl View Post
    You're trying to make this into something I didn't say or mean.

    We did reach out to the man making these... BEFORE we realized there was a potential conflict with licensing, and wouldn't be able to offer his product anyway.

    As a machinist, I'm sure you already understand you couldn't expect to make copies of a logo/item that you are not licensing from the owner of the copyright... Then expect that owner/manufacturer to look the other way.


    As a machinist I should understand this but you as VOA Social Media Director did not and reached out to this person "BEFORE" you realized this.

    Seriously?
    Last edited by TheMadMachinist; 05-24-2017 at 02:44 PM.
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  13. #13
    Kala Rexroad
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMadMachinist View Post
    As a machinist I should understand this but you as VOA Social Media Director didn't not and reached out to this person "BEFORE" you realized this.

    Seriously?
    If you MUST know, I wasn't the one who personally reached out to him for sponsorship... there are a lot of other volunteers here...
    Use the Report a post feature... It works!

  14. #14
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    I get the whole copyright thing and just so you know this isn't ego driven on my part.

    And for the record the email I was sent about editing my post only mentioned the site supporter issue and said nothing about copyrights.
    Last edited by TheMadMachinist; 05-24-2017 at 02:48 PM.
    2000 GTS built/Paxton:Sold
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper Girl View Post
    If you MUST know, I wasn't the one who personally reached out to him for sponsorship... there are a lot of other volunteers here...
    None of this is a personal attack at anyone. But you wrote "we" and I assumed you were one of the we"s.

    And there is no reason to yell.
    Last edited by TheMadMachinist; 05-24-2017 at 02:41 PM.
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  16. #16
    Scott Grayson
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    I was hoping that this wouldn't grow into an argument of this nature. You asked a sincere question and made a cogent argument. Unfortunately, we (the moderators and the national officers indirectly) disagree with your assessment of our guidelines and our enforcement of same. We simply can't please everyone and having this discussion get salty serves no one's interest.

    Please try to understand and accept the policy we're enforcing. Again, I'm not suggesting we're "right" here (nor that you are wrong), but rather that we completely understand your argument and opinion, but disagree as to the ramifications of its implementation.

    I'm hoping (again) that we've now exhausted both the discussion and the associated angst. Pretty please?
    2008 SRT10 Open Roof (1 of 2)
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  17. #17
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    this is typically more of a winter spat, not middle of driving weather..lol

    and im sooooo gonna ban LIG one of these days
    THE IGNORE FEATURE WORKS, TRY IT...

  18. #18
    Scott Grayson
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsGood View Post
    Plum sucks!
    Hey you!
    2008 SRT10 Open Roof (1 of 2)
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by City View Post
    I was hoping that this wouldn't grow into an argument of this nature. You asked a sincere question and made a cogent argument. Unfortunately, we (the moderators and the national officers indirectly) disagree with your assessment of our guidelines and our enforcement of same. We simply can't please everyone and having this discussion get salty serves no one's interest.

    Please try to understand and accept the policy we're enforcing. Again, I'm not suggesting we're "right" here (nor that you are wrong), but rather that we completely understand your argument and opinion, but disagree as to the ramifications of its implementation.

    I'm hoping (again) that we've now exhausted both the discussion and the associated angst. Pretty please?
    Well thank you for the sincere and cogent comment of my question. I have been called a lot of thing over the years but I have to say cogent is a first for me and I will wear it as a badge from now on. But salty.... Now you have crossed the line and the gloves are off.lol
    2000 GTS built/Paxton:Sold
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  20. #20
    Scott Grayson
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMadMachinist View Post
    Well thank you for the sincere and cogent comment of my question. I have been called a lot of thing over the years but I have to say cogent is a first for me and I will wear it as a badge from now on. But salty.... Now you have crossed the line and the gloves are off.lol
    Pleased I got an LOL after all this. Now I need to get on annoying all the forum members once again.
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  21. #21
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    I do have a question for the Mods. From time to time I have come up with a little doodad that I made for myself for one of my Vipers. I can shear my ideas with the forum but I am not aloud to sell any of theses even in the classified section. Is this correct?

    If that statement is correct how much would a lonely,poor,old and broken down machinist like myself have to pay this club for the right to be a "Site Supporter" and offer my wonderful ideas to all that would be interested.
    2000 GTS built/Paxton:Sold
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  22. #22
    Kala Rexroad
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    We have a few club members that make parts for other viper owners... The center cap guy comes to mind.

    From the General Forum Rules https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...al-Forum-Rules

    • Advertising and offering parts or services in the forums are permitted only by VOA members and only to the extent that such offering is not "commercial" in nature (such determination shall be at moderator discretion). VOA members must also place a classified ad which must be linked to their forum post.
    • Advertising and offering parts or services by non-VOA members is permitted in the classified area only.
    • Classified advertisements will be limited to 5 ads for any single VOA member and 3 ads for Non-VOA members at any one time.
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  23. #23
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    does that include me, advertising for recreation of kits for Vipers? LOL I don't know why I'm in this thread actually, just got curious about all this discussion
    http://instagram.com/uae_vipers | | | TA1.0 rear spoiler - done | TA1.0 front spoiler - done | ACR-E rear diffuser - done | ACR-E front spoiler without splitters - done | ACR-E rear spoiler (wing) in progress | soon

  24. #24
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    So in a Nutshell, if a Member finds a good product or offers a low production product that a Sponsored Vendor is not selling, they could post picture of said product and then other web users could PM that member for more details

    Technically then, no rules are broken. So long as prices and direct links are kept off the forum?

  25. #25
    Kala Rexroad
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    Your thread has been re-instated Venom700...
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