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  1. #1
    Enthusiast stradman's Avatar
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    Spa Francorchamp F1 Circuit First proper shakedown of 9 0 Fast Lap

    Hi Guys,

    Well as some of you know, its been a bit of a saga or perhaps I should say a “journey” with my 9.0L after it came back from its mods at Prefix and which I have discussed on other threads. I’ve only had a handful of exploratory track days since the mods being marred by either getting kicked off track for noise or power loss from melted catalytic converters. All of which of course took a few months to figure out and then subsequently make some custom exhausts which would allow me to get access to some tracks. I was however very much looking forward to Spa this week to hopefully once and for all test the car and see how it performed.

    Well, in the end, as I was playing with a mate in his 997 GT3 and I with my 996 GT3, I only managed to get just over 30 laps in the ACR. I’ll be honest and say that I started those laps with some trepidation and a journey of rediscovery with the car. I was so paranoid also that I would be struck with some bad luck again and that something would happen, that for about 20 of those laps I was treading gingerly, feeling out the car again and assessing a number of things that I wanted to understand and gauge. I also didn’t want to get kicked off for noise for a start, as I wasn’t sure how effective the custom exhausts would be, so was always short shifting over the start line for half of those. Ultimately, it seemed ok as towards the end I gave it full beans and didn’t get black flagged!

    I was also constantly looking at oil pressure and temps as I was progressively building up the speeds, but honestly engine wise thankfully it didn’t even blink. It was all good as gold, engine running smoothly, and cooly and pulling like a train. On that last point, I was a bit more cautious than normal, as there is just so much torque, and instantly available, that a misplaced prod of that accelerator will quickly get that rear end out in no time-as I found out on a couple of occasions.
    So after all was said and done, and traffic eased towards the end of the day I thought it would be appropriate to try a half decent attempt at a lap time to see where she lies. In the end I ran used slicks, saving a new set for when I was sure the car was 100%-next time I will. Interestingly I didn’t sense a huge difference with the used Pirelli slicks compared to say a brand new set of Kumho’s as some of corner speeds where not any different to my pre modification laps at the same circuit. Of course I’m sure brand spanking new slicks on their first say 15 laps will and should and will be quicker than the Kumhos.

    So the best time I managed on my last 5-6 lap attempts, and where I gave it a sincere go was a 2:32.98. Although that’s a reasonable time, I do believe however a sub 2:30 is in order and is achievable. To put that in perspective, a Manthey prepared and run GT2RS with one of their racing drivers set a 2:31 at Spa. So not bad for an old amateur like me in an old analogue manually driven car like the ACR! I think I did the Viper community proud! However I feel there is still more to come and I'm back at there at the end of the month to set a sub 2:30 time. I will also state however for the avoidance of any doubt that, in my hands at least, and contrary to what I initially may have thought, I cannot see the car ever doing anything like a 2:25, which is what the current track king the Mclaren Senna has done at this track, and despite similar levels of grip.

    Now I have to quantify this. The main limitation I can see is ironically, the manual gearbox. It simply cannot compete with the new 7 speed flappy paddles no matter how well you can shift. Much as I love my manual gearboxes, when you get down to those kind of lap times, and if you want to set the fastest laps in any given modern car, this can only really be done with an automated gearbox. Simply put, time is lost from upshifting and more importantly downshifting. I believe the ACR’s manual gearbox, although reasonably beefy, is probably close to its limit for track use what with an 800hp+ engine in front. I do get quite a bit of noticeable nibbling if the gearchange isn’t perfect on downshifting, and of course that loses time. I have changed the gearbox oil to Royal Purple Synchromax which has made a difference but still, you really have to be on your game when changing. I think if your gig is drag racing though it would be ok.

    You realise the challenge on track when trying to optimally assimilate your late braking and corner speed entry-from quite high speeds with everything around you happening super fast, and yet you’re frantically trying to dance with 3 pedals, rev match and moving a manly gearstick lever at the same time-not the most effective way to manage your time! At the same time I’m trying to be careful not to buzz the engine with a misguided downshift! Sure its hugely interactive in a way no modern supercar can be with all the modern wizardry, but its simply never going to be as fast as the ultimate supercar like the Senna, if all you want to do is blast out a super fast lap time. Nonetheless, I believe if I can get to under 2:30 I’ll be content and I guess there are probably not many other manual gearbox, no nanny cars around that can do this.

    The other thing I need to try to work on is trusting and using the aero more. This car has so much grip I really need to lean on it much more-but its hard for me, not coming from a race background and I’ll be honest I still very much am and regard myself as an amateur. I will of course be analysing my data more, as that is part of the fun of our hobby, but on first look there are certainly improvements to be had in a number of corners. I know by comparison I’m down 3-4 mph on some corners compared to the Senna, which although not insurmountable will require some commitment. Oh and I also need to adjust my new Tillet seat position. with the height and reach to make me more comfortable for fast lapping. It’s all a work in progress!

    So that’s my update for now. Next Spa day is end of September so will see what happens then!

    Last edited by stradman; 09-11-2019 at 03:21 PM.

  2. #2
    That's fantastic! Good to hear the Prefix 9.0 setup was solid (I have that in my car as well). I bet you'll be able to get under 2:30 and maybe into the 2:28-2:29 range once you get more comfortable with the mechanical and aero grip. Well done.
    Blake

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  3. #3
    2:32.98 is FLYING around SPA.

    EDIT: I mean no disrespect to anyone with this comment, but I would've thought the car would've pulled hard right after Eau Rouge/Radillion. I didn't feel like it was accelerating like it should.

    EDIT #2: Is your seat torqued down? It sure moves around a lot in cornering.
    Last edited by 13COBRA; 09-11-2019 at 04:42 PM.

  4. #4
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    Badass dude! What tires are you running?
    2013 caged 803whp 9.0 liter, 2016 ACR, 1996 GTS, 2001 RT/10, 2003 SRT/10, 2018 McLaren 720s, 2020 G63, 2005 Ford GT, 2019 Megacab Dually

  5. #5
    Enthusiast One Viper Bite's Avatar
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    Man, for your first proper go, you were flying! Give yourself a hand.

    It does seem like you're bouncing of the rev limiter quite often. Over an entire lap, that does add up, so I would say aside from looking at your telemetry, work on not hitting that limiter.

    Awesome stuff!
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  6. #6
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    Great video and nice driving.

    The seat movement could be from the thin gauge seat lowering base flexing. I noticed some movement in mine as well, even with the harness straps tightened down. Hopefully, the DSE seat base will eliminate or minimize the movement.

  7. #7
    Nice. I was looking forward to your Spa runs. Next time you will do a 2:28 You don't trust the aero yet, are not comfortable yet, you don't know the cars limits yet and you were on used slicks. But you still did a smoking lap time that is 10th's behind a pro driver in the Manthey GT2 RS......sheesh. Id be bouncing off the walls with that accomplishment if I were you haha. You and your car have a lot more in it time-wise and I'd bet a pro driver like a Lance Arnold etc would do a Senna-like time. Thanks for sharing, stay safe and keep em coming.

  8. #8
    Enthusiast stradman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperNC View Post
    That's fantastic! Good to hear the Prefix 9.0 setup was solid (I have that in my car as well). I bet you'll be able to get under 2:30 and maybe into the 2:28-2:29 range once you get more comfortable with the mechanical and aero grip. Well done.
    Cheers! That's the plan!

    Quote Originally Posted by 13COBRA View Post
    2:32.98 is FLYING around SPA.

    EDIT: I mean no disrespect to anyone with this comment, but I would've thought the car would've pulled hard right after Eau Rouge/Radillion. I didn't feel like it was accelerating like it should.

    EDIT #2: Is your seat torqued down? It sure moves around a lot in cornering.
    Well on that run managed 163mph at the end of that long uphill straight called Kemmel. On another run I managed 170mph down same straight so car pulls hard. To put it into context the GT2RS manages 171 and the Senna(with active aero) does 175mph so I think ACR is on par considering the very large fixed wing at the back.
    Will be getting DSE floor brackets in the next couple of weeks so seat should be slightly more stable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona Vipers View Post
    Badass dude! What tires are you running?
    Used Pirelli DH's. I think that I will try 31psi hot next time as it seemed from our temp readings and appearance they were slightly underpressured at 30psi.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Viper Bite View Post
    Man, for your first proper go, you were flying! Give yourself a hand.

    It does seem like you're bouncing of the rev limiter quite often. Over an entire lap, that does add up, so I would say aside from looking at your telemetry, work on not hitting that limiter.

    Awesome stuff!
    Agreed about all bouncing off limiter and changes. All that adds up. I've got some work to do to improve the time, but that's all part of the fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by sharmut View Post
    Great video and nice driving.

    The seat movement could be from the thin gauge seat lowering base flexing. I noticed some movement in mine as well, even with the harness straps tightened down. Hopefully, the DSE seat base will eliminate or minimize the movement.
    Yes agreed. DSE floor mounts on their way!

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit10 View Post
    Nice. I was looking forward to your Spa runs. Next time you will do a 2:28 You don't trust the aero yet, are not comfortable yet, you don't know the cars limits yet and you were on used slicks. But you still did a smoking lap time that is 10th's behind a pro driver in the Manthey GT2 RS......sheesh. Id be bouncing off the walls with that accomplishment if I were you haha. You and your car have a lot more in it time-wise and I'd bet a pro driver like a Lance Arnold etc would do a Senna-like time. Thanks for sharing, stay safe and keep em coming.
    No I'm very happy with these initial runs. I'm sure more to come and agree with you probably something like a 2:28 is on the cards, which is definitely a smoking time for a street legal car! Stay tuned!!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by stradman View Post
    Well on that run managed 163mph at the end of that long uphill straight called Kemmel. On another run I managed 170mph down same straight so car pulls hard. To put it into context the GT2RS manages 171 and the Senna(with active aero) does 175mph so I think ACR is on par considering the very large fixed wing at the back.
    Will be getting DSE floor brackets in the next couple of weeks so seat should be slightly more stable.
    I think a lot of the perception is that it just doesn't look violent, videos downplay it a lot. A 2:32 is incredibly quick, especially for your first day with your current setup on used slicks.

    I can't wait to see more!

  10. #10
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    I love Spa. Thanks for the clip!
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by stradman View Post
    Cheers! That's the plan!







    Used Pirelli DH's. I think that I will try 31psi hot next time as it seemed from our temp readings and appearance they were slightly underpressured at 30psi.

    Hard to get a "real" time on used slicks, there's a 3-4 second variable right there from new to 8 heat cycles or so with the Pirelli's. If they were towards the end of their life cycle you would have been 2.28 all day long
    2013 caged 803whp 9.0 liter, 2016 ACR, 1996 GTS, 2001 RT/10, 2003 SRT/10, 2018 McLaren 720s, 2020 G63, 2005 Ford GT, 2019 Megacab Dually

  12. #12
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    Strad, great video and what a beautiful track!!!

    Glad you got the exhaust sound level sorted out, what is the db limit at Spa?

    I agree with your comments on the manual trans, especially when going super fast and then big braking for a 2 or 3 gear downshift is really tough. AZ-Cable has a buddy that converted to a sequential with paddle shifts and I'm hoping I can get my sequential converted next summer. Effortless/fast downshifting and then being able to left foot brake!

    Thanks again for the video's, still close to 40C at the desert tracks here. Finally getting back out in early October!! take care, Mike
    1994 Red/Tan RT/10, '99 red ACR- sold, '06 Red/Silver Coupe-RIP, '06 Red/Silver Coupe - Sold, '08 Red/Silver ACR-C sold, 2006 Comp Coupe C-92

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by stradman View Post
    Cheers! That's the plan!
    I may have to fly to Belgium and witness for myself. DROOOOL.... Spa is a bucket list item for me. And on used slicks???? Now I predict 2:27's! Maybe quicker!
    Blake

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  14. #14
    Supporting Vendor JonB ~ PartsRack's Avatar
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    Fun / Jealous to watch. Thanks

    What is the point-by protocol? You passed 3 cars, all SEEMED somewhat aware. Sparse traffic, Did not see blue LED flags or point / signal bye. Last guy flash-signaled, but opposite to FIA quide!?

    Agree with Rev limit hint.... I bet your giant TQ curve allows you to shift 100-200 RPM sooner with no slowing ?

    I bet you monitor your lateral Gs? Seems like you have a bit of room on better tires...

    Again, Much Thanks............
    Last edited by JonB ~ PartsRack; 09-12-2019 at 01:55 PM.
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    Nice job!

    7 seconds is a good bit on a 2:30m track, but there is a bunch of time in fast turns if you do not think you are currently taking full advantage of the downforce.

    I assume Senna is also running slicks to get that 2:25 time? If so, who is driving it?

    The two cars have nearly identical downforce numbers (approx. 1,700lbs for ACR-E; approx. 1,800lbs for Senna) and nearly identical power numbers with the 9L. You are carrying about 200-300lbs more weight though. And then there is the manual vs. auto issue. But damn it should be very, very close under perfect conditions and with new tires. Get some weight out of the car, throw in that sequential, and you should be there!

  16. #16
    Enthusiast stradman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedTanRT/10 View Post
    Strad, great video and what a beautiful track!!!

    Glad you got the exhaust sound level sorted out, what is the db limit at Spa?

    I agree with your comments on the manual trans, especially when going super fast and then big braking for a 2 or 3 gear downshift is really tough. AZ-Cable has a buddy that converted to a sequential with paddle shifts and I'm hoping I can get my sequential converted next summer. Effortless/fast downshifting and then being able to left foot brake!

    Thanks again for the video's, still close to 40C at the desert tracks here. Finally getting back out in early October!! take care, Mike
    Thanks Mike! Drive by noise limit at Spa is now 103db. I think I'm just below that limit now so the custom exhausts seem to have done the trick! I'm sure you're raring to get back on track!

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperNC View Post
    I may have to fly to Belgium and witness for myself. DROOOOL.... Spa is a bucket list item for me. And on used slicks???? Now I predict 2:27's! Maybe quicker!
    Sure why not come over! The more Viper fans the better!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JonB ~ PartsRack View Post
    Fun / Jealous to watch. Thanks

    What is the point-by protocol? You passed 3 cars, all SEEMED somewhat aware. Sparse traffic, Did not see blue LED flags or point / signal bye. Last guy flash-signaled, but opposite to FIA quide!?

    Agree with Rev limit hint.... I bet your giant TQ curve allows you to shift 100-200 RPM sooner with no slowing ?

    I bet you monitor your lateral Gs? Seems like you have a bit of room on better tires...

    Again, Much Thanks............
    Hi Jon, well the track days I do are premium track days with few cars relatively speaking and allow overtaking on either side. Only limitation is no diving on the inside of corners. Otherwise we're all adults and if you see someone faster coming in your rearview mirror, you just hold your line and he guy behind will pass you where he feels its appropriate. Yes there are Blue LED flags that usually go off when they see someone coming along behind you. Yes agree about the shifting 1-200 rpm before limiter. Just currently getting to grips with car overall atm. Cheers

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott_in_fl View Post
    Nice job!

    7 seconds is a good bit on a 2:30m track, but there is a bunch of time in fast turns if you do not think you are currently taking full advantage of the downforce.

    I assume Senna is also running slicks to get that 2:25 time? If so, who is driving it?

    The two cars have nearly identical downforce numbers (approx. 1,700lbs for ACR-E; approx. 1,800lbs for Senna) and nearly identical power numbers with the 9L. You are carrying about 200-300lbs more weight though. And then there is the manual vs. auto issue. But damn it should be very, very close under perfect conditions and with new tires. Get some weight out of the car, throw in that sequential, and you should be there!
    Agree about taking advantage of aero. But balls have to grow first! Still working on them!
    Senna's 2:25 is on Pirelli Trofeo R's!! So really that car is mega- and so it should be at well over 1 million bucks right?!
    I'm currently at 1480kgs with a full fluids and full tank of gas(3250lbs). So not sure what else I can do. I've done all mods possible-although won't go to Cables extreme. Just not my thing. Senna is about 90kgs lighter or about 200 lbs in similar guise. Maybe in due course sequential is possible although I'm a die hard manual box guy and may likely resist it and accept limitations. At the end of the day you're onto a loser if you constantly keep chasing after the latest and greatest-which will inevitably be more efficient and ultimately faster. Sometimes you just have to accept the new guys on the block will be that way although the old ACR with its old manual gearbox in my hands at least will always give em a good run for their money!

    Fast forward to 11 minutes for the lap. Car is driven by Duncan Tappy- A Professional Racing driver

    Last edited by stradman; 09-12-2019 at 03:09 PM.

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    Wow, what a lap, and what a car! He seemed to use the curbing a bit more than you did, which means he can carry more speed through and out of turns. If you think you have some room to improve your line, then that would certainly be low hanging fruit to catch more time.

    But damn, if a Senna driven by a professional driver (with a support crew it seems -- noticed the McLaren hauler in the background) is the only road car that you have to worry about, then I think you'll be doing just fine!!!

  18. #18
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    Those Sena's are pretty quick. I met a guy at Laguna in May who matched Randy's ACR time on a day when the track was damp. This guy is fast but his day job is heading up Google's enterprise systems.

    Better rubber and more practice should get you close with that modified ACR, not bad for $200k vs. $1 million!!
    1994 Red/Tan RT/10, '99 red ACR- sold, '06 Red/Silver Coupe-RIP, '06 Red/Silver Coupe - Sold, '08 Red/Silver ACR-C sold, 2006 Comp Coupe C-92

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedTanRT/10 View Post
    Those Sena's are pretty quick. I met a guy at Laguna in May who matched Randy's ACR time on a day when the track was damp. This guy is fast but his day job is heading up Google's enterprise systems.

    Better rubber and more practice should get you close with that modified ACR, not bad for $200k vs. $1 million!!
    Ben I assume, dude can definitely drive that's for sure. ( he also has awesome taste in cars, he's owned everything from fox bodies, vipers, ferrari, mclaren, lambo)




    Amazing video, it's pretty awesome that an ACR can even be talked about being close to matching the Senna's lap time!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RedTanRT/10 View Post
    Those Sena's are pretty quick. I met a guy at Laguna in May who matched Randy's ACR time on a day when the track was damp. This guy is fast but his day job is heading up Google's enterprise systems.

    Better rubber and more practice should get you close with that modified ACR, not bad for $200k vs. $1 million!!
    I would say Ben is very very close to pro-driver speeds.

  21. #21
    Enthusiast USAFPILOT's Avatar
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    Awesome video...now let Calvo put a set of twins and the flappy paddles on it and then go back and kick the Sennas Ass!

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by stradman View Post
    Thanks Mike! Drive by noise limit at Spa is now 103db. I think I'm just below that limit now so the custom exhausts seem to have done the trick! I'm sure you're raring to get back on track!



    Sure why not come over! The more Viper fans the better!!



    Hi Jon, well the track days I do are premium track days with few cars relatively speaking and allow overtaking on either side. Only limitation is no diving on the inside of corners. Otherwise we're all adults and if you see someone faster coming in your rearview mirror, you just hold your line and he guy behind will pass you where he feels its appropriate. Yes there are Blue LED flags that usually go off when they see someone coming along behind you. Yes agree about the shifting 1-200 rpm before limiter. Just currently getting to grips with car overall atm. Cheers



    Agree about taking advantage of aero. But balls have to grow first! Still working on them!
    Senna's 2:25 is on Pirelli Trofeo R's!! So really that car is mega- and so it should be at well over 1 million bucks right?!
    I'm currently at 1480kgs with a full fluids and full tank of gas(3250lbs). So not sure what else I can do. I've done all mods possible-although won't go to Cables extreme. Just not my thing. Senna is about 90kgs lighter or about 200 lbs in similar guise. Maybe in due course sequential is possible although I'm a die hard manual box guy and may likely resist it and accept limitations. At the end of the day you're onto a loser if you constantly keep chasing after the latest and greatest-which will inevitably be more efficient and ultimately faster. Sometimes you just have to accept the new guys on the block will be that way although the old ACR with its old manual gearbox in my hands at least will always give em a good run for their money!

    Fast forward to 11 minutes for the lap. Car is driven by Duncan Tappy- A Professional Racing driver

    Niice video. That car is faaaaaast. Duncan Tappy is one of my favorite drivers in GT Open series. The man knows his way around Mclarens for sure.

    Imagine a pro level driver in your car though. For sure your car would be right on the heels of the Senna. Only thing stopping you from running with or beating the Senna is maybe weight and DCT. But I think it should be close with equal level pro drivers. Of the "normal" million dollar hyper/hybrid cars, the Senna is the only one so far that may be faster than the 9.0L Vipers on a track. Not too shabby for an out of production analog car eh?

    BTW I think the Viper looks way better than the Senna, whether in the rear view mirror or out the windshield hehe.

  23. #23
    Also keep in mind he had no traffic to deal with on that lap either.... Release the 9.0 on new tires with a pro driver with no other cars on track. That would be quite the experience.
    Blake

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  24. #24
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    Great driving.
    Great car.
    Great track.

    What beautiful scenery to drive through!!

  25. #25
    Enthusiast stradman's Avatar
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    Guys, Spa Francorchamps is a track guys wet dream. Its just perfect. I feel so lucky to be able to access this track within 6 hours-door to door. Its got everything really that you would want. Which is why it is many peoples favourite track. Can't wait to get back there on the 30th of September! I'll try my best to do you guys justice!! I just have to try to grow the balls a bit more and in time!!
    I also hope it stays dry on the day.


 
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