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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLP View Post
    This car is insane. Took it out and set off a neighbors car alarm just backing out of the driveway. I have decided to add another 12" muffler on each side. It drives really really smooth above 2k rpms. Tuner is smoothing out the lower ranges then once that's sorted, WOT logging!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHPky_vvTa8
    That sounds ridiculous! Why are you adding mufflers? I'm still running the OEM mufflers which seems to keep most of the drone out, but I'm getting the itch to switch them out.
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  2. #102
    Enthusiast SLP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack B View Post
    The hard spot to tune is typically the 1500-2000 area, plus, the 2.26 first gear does not help.
    For anyone with a heads/big cam gen V, do you have any surging at low RPMs? My remote tuner, Torrie, has lessened it quite a bit but it's still present in 1st and 2nd low rpms. I'm not sure what my expectations should be. We aren't done yet though, Torrie is very thorough!

    Quote Originally Posted by 98intrigue View Post
    That sounds ridiculous! Why are you adding mufflers? I'm still running the OEM mufflers which seems to keep most of the drone out, but I'm getting the itch to switch them out.
    Because what I have (single 18" x 3" diameter resonator/muffler on each side) is not enough. I'm setting off car alarms just trolling through the neighborhood. I'm going to double it up and do two 18" x 3" resonator/mufflers on each side.
    Last edited by SLP; 03-31-2020 at 03:18 PM.
    2013 GTS - Self Installed Heads/Valvetrain/Cam/Custom Exhaust. Triple carbon clutch and built tr6060.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLP View Post
    This car is insane. Took it out and set off a neighbors car alarm just backing out of the driveway. I have decided to add another 12" muffler on each side. It drives really really smooth above 2k rpms. Tuner is smoothing out the lower ranges then once that's sorted, WOT logging!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHPky_vvTa8
    2013 track car, 2016 ACR, 1996 GTS, 2001 RT/10, 2003 SRT/10

  4. #104
    Maybe try a Gen3 cat-back. Big cam on that sounds crazy good. Shoot me a number and I'll send you a video clip. The setup was a Roe710R cam with a Paxton SC through ARH heads, no cats and STOCK Gen3 Cat-back. Didn't drone but was plenty loud but had a sick lumpy-lumpy idle.


    Edit: Before anyone say anything about cabin heat...I never had an issue even driving in Florida summers.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey View Post
    Edit: Before anyone say anything about cabin heat...I never had an issue even driving in Florida summers.
    This is true, when you get rid of the cats, you get rid of the heat.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLP View Post
    For anyone with a heads/big cam gen V, do you have any surging at low RPMs? My remote tuner, Torrie, has lessened it quite a bit but it's still present in 1st and 2nd low rpms. I'm not sure what my expectations should be. We aren't done yet though, Torrie is very thorough!
    I have an A&C car, and it has the surging sensation at lower rpm's. My Vengeance H/C car didn't do it at all, but it had a milder cam. I plan on having Torrie take a look at mine as well.
    2014 Carbon Edition GTS/TA #42
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  7. #107
    what rpm range do you have the surge?

  8. #108
    Enthusiast SLP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outnumbered View Post
    I have an A&C car, and it has the surging sensation at lower rpm's. My Vengeance H/C car didn't do it at all, but it had a milder cam. I plan on having Torrie take a look at mine as well.
    It's been a good experience so far road tuning with Torrie. He takes his time, is thorough, and appears to be very thoughtful about delivering the best service that he can. I'm not experienced with tuning/HPT and he was patient in answering all my questions and helping me get set up. He also replies to all emails in a timely matter which has been very nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by camarochevy1970 View Post
    what rpm range do you have the surge?
    ~1500-2100. Torrie has smoothed it out dramatically but there's still a little bit present. Any idea if that's just what I should expect on a cam with a large overlap? It's interesting to read that Outnumbered's A&C car had surge, I always thought theirs did not after seeing a couple A&C videos where the owner? was demonstrating that their h/c gen V's were smooth on the street.
    Last edited by SLP; 03-31-2020 at 07:22 PM.
    2013 GTS - Self Installed Heads/Valvetrain/Cam/Custom Exhaust. Triple carbon clutch and built tr6060.

  9. #109
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    Around 2000, at lower speeds. Once I get above 60mph, she's fine.
    2014 Carbon Edition GTS/TA #42
    2014 Orange TA #35 of 93 Vengeance Racing H/C Torrie tuned - 666/620 - SOLD
    2014 Carbon Edition GTS - plaqued #7 of 35 cars made - SOLD

  10. #110
    large overlap cams can cause that, but generally lower rpm, but that is my experience in a v8. May be different in a v10 with a more aggressive cam

  11. #111
    I had a very small amount of surge on my Gen3 with a Roe710R cam and Paxton. Larry Macedo did the tuning. Honestly I only noticed it in parking lots. Once above parking lot speed I could lug it around in 6th at 65mph (1200rpm-ish) and it never bucked or surged. The car seemed to like being at 80mph though that was about 1500rpm and still returned 24-25mpg on the hwy and that is nuts for 850rwhp+

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by outnumbered View Post
    Around 2000, at lower speeds. Once I get above 60mph, she's fine.
    This is what mine does. Only surges around 2k RPM in the lower 4 gears. Not at 1700, not 2300. Won't surge in 5th or 6th, not enough torque multiplication.

  13. #113
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    Surging annoys me to the point that I would rather take some power out and install a milder cam. As camarochevy1970 stated, large overlaps can cause that. The vacuum fluctuates wildly at low rpms and that wreaks havoc with the map sensor/fueling causing the surge. Some aftermarket engine management ECU's/software allow you to smooth out the signal going to the MAP sensor to mitigate the issue.

  14. #114
    It has more to do with load than it does RPM, but 2K rpm is an interesting spot for wave tuning on the odd fire V10.

    We tell people all the time with honesty, that there is no magic trick to make low rpm low LOAD (read, high manifold vacuum situations, such as in a parking lot or steady speed hold with very low throttle positions) situations buttery smooth like stock when you have a cam with the valve timing events needed to make the peak power people want to see. I'm completely confident in saying that condition will exist in anyone's engine package if it truly makes the power that is either claimed and/or desired. Typically that changeover seems to be around 750-760 BHP on most combinations. Some will douse the engine with fuel to try to calm it down but that leads to other issues long term.

    Plain and simple, you can't always have your cake and eat it too with naturally aspirated combinations. You can try and get close to it, but there will always be some level of sacrifice as the power goal goes up.

  15. #115
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    I actually don't mind the surging, if I wanted an absolutely smooth driving vehicle I'd get a Tesla.

  16. #116
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    I am not overly concerned with it, because once I go full throttle, all Hell breaks loose. This car is noticeably stronger than my milder cam Vengeance car. I'm just more curious if the tune can be fine tuned, and maybe even get a little more HP.
    2014 Carbon Edition GTS/TA #42
    2014 Orange TA #35 of 93 Vengeance Racing H/C Torrie tuned - 666/620 - SOLD
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nth Moto View Post
    It has more to do with load than it does RPM, but 2K rpm is an interesting spot for wave tuning on the odd fire V10.

    We tell people all the time with honesty, that there is no magic trick to make low rpm low LOAD (read, high manifold vacuum situations, such as in a parking lot or steady speed hold with very low throttle positions) situations buttery smooth like stock when you have a cam with the valve timing events needed to make the peak power people want to see. I'm completely confident in saying that condition will exist in anyone's engine package if it truly makes the power that is either claimed and/or desired. Typically that changeover seems to be around 750-760 BHP on most combinations. Some will douse the engine with fuel to try to calm it down but that leads to other issues long term.

    Plain and simple, you can't always have your cake and eat it too with naturally aspirated combinations. You can try and get close to it, but there will always be some level of sacrifice as the power goal goes up.
    This in regards to load^^^I just usually offset by riding around town in a lower gear. Whereas I used to run 45mph in 4th, I now do it in 3rd. Car sounds mean, and takes the surging out.
    2014 Carbon Edition GTS/TA #42
    2014 Orange TA #35 of 93 Vengeance Racing H/C Torrie tuned - 666/620 - SOLD
    2014 Carbon Edition GTS - plaqued #7 of 35 cars made - SOLD

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by outnumbered View Post
    This in regards to load^^^I just usually offset by riding around town in a lower gear. Whereas I used to run 45mph in 4th, I now do it in 3rd. Car sounds mean, and takes the surging out.
    Correct, and conversely if you go to WOT at 1500-2000 RPM the engine won't surge either as the load is increased. You just have to drive the car like it's a modified car and accept that those changes will be needed. My statements are largely generic and giving light to the idea for the OP that there will be some compromises to achieve the gains desired.

  19. #119
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    what about being in 3rd or 4th gear under 2000 rpm steady state...lot's a load and lot's of surge.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Gen5snake View Post
    what about being in 3rd or 4th gear under 2000 rpm steady state...lot's a load and lot's of surge.
    It's not a lot of load at all - the Viper's displacement and engine design overall allows it to be able to do that with ease; typically less than 15% actual throttle blade opening and as little as 30-40 kpa manifold pressure.

  21. #121
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    Does anyone know what cam spec gives decent Horsepower and Drive abilty , ie No bucking ???
    White Mamba ,

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by J TNT View Post
    Does anyone know what cam spec gives decent Horsepower and Drive abilty , ie No bucking ???
    My Vengeance car had a 232/244 with .380” gross lift and a 113 LCA which has right at 12* overlap. With a Torrie tune for 91 octane, it made 666 with what the new owner is reporting as great driveability. Even with their tuning, I experienced no surging. Vengeance told me that the cam was the milder of the two that they offered.

    I believe VE uses:

    Intake lobe is at 234 duration and 0.617” valve lift
    Exhaust lobe is 242 duration and 0.617” valve lift.
    Last edited by outnumbered; 04-01-2020 at 01:18 PM.
    2014 Carbon Edition GTS/TA #42
    2014 Orange TA #35 of 93 Vengeance Racing H/C Torrie tuned - 666/620 - SOLD
    2014 Carbon Edition GTS - plaqued #7 of 35 cars made - SOLD

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by outnumbered View Post
    My Vengeance car had a 232/244 with .380” gross lift and a 113 LCA which has right at 12* overlap. With a Torrie tune for 91 octane, it made 666 with what the new owner is reporting as great driveability. Even with their tuning, I experienced no surging. Vengeance told me that the cam was the milder of the two that they offered.

    I believe VE uses:

    Intake lobe is at 234 duration and 0.617” valve lift
    Exhaust lobe is 242 duration and 0.617” valve lift.
    Thanks Outnumbered and great HP Number .
    White Mamba ,

  24. #124
    Enthusiast Jack B's Avatar
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    Another complication is for those cars that have the .5 sixth gear. You really have to be above a cruise of 70 in 6th gear to minimize the surge. As stated the problem is not the load, it is the lack of a load.
    Last edited by Jack B; 04-01-2020 at 05:04 PM.
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  25. #125
    Enthusiast SLP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nth Moto View Post
    It has more to do with load than it does RPM, but 2K rpm is an interesting spot for wave tuning on the odd fire V10.

    We tell people all the time with honesty, that there is no magic trick to make low rpm low LOAD (read, high manifold vacuum situations, such as in a parking lot or steady speed hold with very low throttle positions) situations buttery smooth like stock when you have a cam with the valve timing events needed to make the peak power people want to see. I'm completely confident in saying that condition will exist in anyone's engine package if it truly makes the power that is either claimed and/or desired. Typically that changeover seems to be around 750-760 BHP on most combinations. Some will douse the engine with fuel to try to calm it down but that leads to other issues long term.

    Plain and simple, you can't always have your cake and eat it too with naturally aspirated combinations. You can try and get close to it, but there will always be some level of sacrifice as the power goal goes up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nth Moto View Post
    Correct, and conversely if you go to WOT at 1500-2000 RPM the engine won't surge either as the load is increased. You just have to drive the car like it's a modified car and accept that those changes will be needed. My statements are largely generic and giving light to the idea for the OP that there will be some compromises to achieve the gains desired.
    Great information, thanks Nth, Jack, and everyone else for chiming in. I really feel like the Gen V forum would benefit from more technical discussions and it's great to see some information coming out in here. Torrie is correctly correcting what he can and I will just deal with minor surging, it's not really a big deal and it seems like I can change a few minor things to my driving style in order to avoid it. I should be completing my next phase of road tuning on Friday, I had to leave town for a work contract. Hopefully I can remember to strap a camera to the car to collect a video for y'all of the next pull I do.


    Hey Nth, on the topic of discussing what we experience in these cars when modified, can you chime in about couple sounds (albeit barely over loud engine/exhaust noises) i'm hearing on your parts :
    1) Clutch sounds like marbles in a can during certain situations. I've read a few other people reporting this experience on the forums but never could find an answer to the cause of the noise and why it happens after some owners install your RPS triple disc.
    2) 5th gear on the used hotrod nth transmission I bought from you/your customer has a high pitch whine when engaged. The wine increases in loudness with rpms. Sound is not present in any other gear. I just got into 5th gear for the first time the other day for like 20 seconds so I don't have much experience understanding this sound yet.

    Are these sounds typical? No mechanical difficulties observed so far. Everything appears to operate how it should, I'm just hearing a few extra sounds fro the drivetrain and I would like to know the "why" per sae.
    Last edited by SLP; 04-01-2020 at 05:54 PM.
    2013 GTS - Self Installed Heads/Valvetrain/Cam/Custom Exhaust. Triple carbon clutch and built tr6060.


 
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