Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30
  1. #1
    VOA Mamba Member
    since 2018
    Alabama/Tennessee
    pokeyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    297

    Coil on Plug Conversion

    I have been working on this of 6 months, first prototype ran only 4 of 10 cylinders. No CEL, works fine. Still testing for long term.

    Full plug and play, looks like this...

    IMG_0076[635].jpg

    IMG_0099[623].jpg

    IMG_0100[625].jpg

    IMG_0102[627].jpg

    I am building one for me and one for a friend with a viper truck. Solves the anode/cathode problem with the current wasted spark system.
    You can teach a dog to fetch, therefore you teach a potato to dance! “Amazingly Bad Analogy”

  2. #2
    VOA Mamba Member
    since 2019
    Northern California
    ACR-ISH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northern CA
    Posts
    361
    Very sweet. Keep us updated as you go!
    2014 SRT - Full APR Aero - BC Racing Coil Overs - Forgeline GA3R-6 - and the list goes on...
    Previous: 2004 Dodge Viper "Mamba" #184 of 200

  3. #3
    Tech Team

    Supporting Vendor
    Viper Specialty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    683
    I hope you didnt do what I think you did, or you are going to replacing PCMs for everybody. You are very obviously using inductive coils, and you cannot tie two inductive coils onto a single driver if you know whats good for you. Seeing as the Viper PCM only has 5 drivers... and ten cylinders.... well, checkmate.

    Hence... why our version is FAR more complicated to deal with that HUGELY small issue.
    Last edited by Viper Specialty; 1 Week Ago at 04:29 PM.
    Dan Lesser
    Viper Specialty Performance
    www.ViperSpecialty.com
    (716) 912-5336

    VOA Tech Team

    .


  4. #4
    VOA Mamba Member
    since 2019
    Northern California
    ACR-ISH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northern CA
    Posts
    361
    Quote Originally Posted by Viper Specialty View Post
    I hope you didnt do what I think you did, or you are going to replacing PCMs for everybody. You are very obviously using inductive coils, and you cannot tie two inductive coils onto a single driver if you know whats good for you. Seeing as the Viper PCM only has 5 drivers... and ten cylinders.... well, checkmate.

    Hence... why our version is FAR more complicated to deal with that HUGELY small issue.
    Uh oh....
    2014 SRT - Full APR Aero - BC Racing Coil Overs - Forgeline GA3R-6 - and the list goes on...
    Previous: 2004 Dodge Viper "Mamba" #184 of 200

  5. #5
    VOA Mamba Member
    since 2018
    Alabama/Tennessee
    pokeyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    297
    It works for me
    You can teach a dog to fetch, therefore you teach a potato to dance! “Amazingly Bad Analogy”

  6. #6
    Tech Team

    Supporting Vendor
    Viper Specialty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    683
    Quote Originally Posted by pokeyl View Post
    It works for me
    :facepalm:

    Report back after you do it with all 10 cylinders at high RPM. Make sure its a hot day too for good measure.

    I will have your new PCM ready to ship


    You cannot double the load on a driver and expect it to last man! I warned you about this months ago in another post, I am pretty sure of it. They fail often enough on STOCK coils, let alone double the amperage and resonance. If it was that simple, you would see it done all the time. You don't... Ever. And for good reason.

    Those are 20amp drivers. The stock coils are ~0.7-0.8 ohms. 14 Volts nominal. I=V/R. Do the math.

    And that's BEFORE you just doubled it. Even if you are using some sissy-ass COP coils, they are still far over the draw of a single OE coil when paired. They ARE going to overheat, breakdown, fail, sink to ground, and ultimately take the PCM main board with them.
    Last edited by Viper Specialty; 1 Week Ago at 08:50 PM.
    Dan Lesser
    Viper Specialty Performance
    www.ViperSpecialty.com
    (716) 912-5336

    VOA Tech Team

    .


  7. #7
    VOA Mamba Member
    since 2018
    Alabama/Tennessee
    pokeyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    297
    Copy all, Thanks, I'll let you know.
    You can teach a dog to fetch, therefore you teach a potato to dance! “Amazingly Bad Analogy”

  8. #8
    VOA Mamba Member
    since 2019
    Northern California
    ACR-ISH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northern CA
    Posts
    361
    Quote Originally Posted by pokeyl View Post
    Copy all, Thanks, I'll let you know.
    Seriously? Possibly grenading a motor is worth some ego, or something? Wow.

    The math above showing the over loaded driver is plain and pretty simple... "Set down the gun, and step away, sir..."
    2014 SRT - Full APR Aero - BC Racing Coil Overs - Forgeline GA3R-6 - and the list goes on...
    Previous: 2004 Dodge Viper "Mamba" #184 of 200

  9. #9
    Interesting subject.. n' one I personally wouldn't mess with.

    For comparison,
    Here are the Coil Packs that came off my 2015 Porsche Cayman at the 4 year service interval (32K miles).
    allOldCoils_small.JPG

    The Porsche ignition system was engineered for this Coil Pack design.
    Some of the Coil Packs had obvious cracks in the head casings and all of them had small/micro fractures in the stems.
    Considered normal wear and tear.. n' because of this, its highly recommended to replace them at least every 4 years with the spark plugs.
    They sit down inside the head where it stays plenty hot.. perhaps the downside to the design.
    Heat cycles cause 'em to crack and get noisy AND the spark plugs have a reduced life span.

    Viper Coil Packs are about the same price as the Porsche Coil Packs. Link

    What is the recommended replacement interval for Coil Packs on the Viper?

    What is there to be gained by juicing your sparks a bit more?
    Last edited by viperBase1; 1 Week Ago at 09:38 AM.
    2008 Very Viper Orange SRT-10 Coupe * The Orange Lure (Black On Orange)
    2015 Black Porsche Mid-Engine Cayman * The Black Caiman (Orange On Black)

  10. #10
    Regional Director
    VOA Member
    since 2013
    Ontario
    J TNT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Ontario,MCVO,PA,OH
    Posts
    2,161
    I'm surprised they don't design a coil pack to take the heat , must be a cost thing.....

    A Hotter spark is better , flame propagation is slow up to .100" ...
    White Mamba ,

  11. #11
    Tech Team

    Supporting Vendor
    Viper Specialty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    683
    Quote Originally Posted by viperBase1 View Post

    What is there to be gained by juicing your sparks a bit more?

    The long and short of it is that this is actually a very worthwhile upgrade. The older OE Viper coils are lame. Very lame. And there is no proper way to reconcile the fact that there is 5 coils, and 10 cylinders with the OE coils- 5 cylinders ALWAYS run hotter than the other. This is the root cause of the misfire that plagues Gen-1/2/3 cars on the passenger side, and also why these cars love to eat converters.

    That said... and in danger of hijacking this guys thread... this is why we designed the COP conversion many years ago. However, it was originally not done as a plug-and-play setup, and since then it has been adapted over to be just that. I prototyped the PNP version, but I just have ZERO time right now to bring it to market. I am actually sitting on all of the components to manufacture about 20 PNP kits waiting for a rainy day to build them all out.

    However... to do all this properly takes a shit-load more than just a set of coils like Pokeyl did, and believe me when I say the only reason we pulled this off is because I am a PCM remanufacturer. Without board level mods and reprogramming, this upgrade would not be possible... and that's why it includes PCM modifications in the package.

    The customer [who is on here] has been running this setup for almost 8 years now without any problems whatsoever. And yeah... that's a Gen-3, running [10] Gen-4 coils.

    VS-X, #002 (99).jpg
    Last edited by Viper Specialty; 1 Week Ago at 08:31 PM.
    Dan Lesser
    Viper Specialty Performance
    www.ViperSpecialty.com
    (716) 912-5336

    VOA Tech Team

    .


  12. #12
    VOA Mamba Member
    since 2018
    Alabama/Tennessee
    pokeyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    297
    I'll let you know when I hit 8 years. Or if I fail!!! The cost of my system is $300 Total. Thanks for all the info from everyone.
    You can teach a dog to fetch, therefore you teach a potato to dance! “Amazingly Bad Analogy”

  13. #13
    I would love the coil on plug kit (I am running gen V heads). Cudos for thinking outside the box. I would prefer to run the gen v coils with coil drivers just for appearance sake, or a smart coil that fits where the gen iv, V coils fit (unders the coil plate on the valve covers).

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by J TNT View Post
    I'm surprised they don't design a coil pack to take the heat , must be a cost thing.....
    The Porsche coils are inserted inside "spark plug tubes" that extends down inside the head and they seal off the top of the tube.
    Those flexible flanges at the top provide the seal and they position the stems precisely over the tip of the plug.

    The heat that accumulates inside the spark plug tubes must be tremendous.
    But it stays super clean down inside the tubes.

    Quote Originally Posted by J TNT View Post
    A Hotter spark is better , flame propagation is slow up to .100" ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Viper Specialty View Post
    The long and short of it is that this is actually a very worthwhile upgrade.
    that's a Gen-3, running [10] Gen-4 coils.
    Couldn't you just go with a hotter spark plug?
    2008 Very Viper Orange SRT-10 Coupe * The Orange Lure (Black On Orange)
    2015 Black Porsche Mid-Engine Cayman * The Black Caiman (Orange On Black)

  15. #15
    Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    North Alabama
    Posts
    139
    Quote Originally Posted by viperBase1 View Post
    Couldn't you just go with a hotter spark plug?
    A hotter spark plug refers to the actual temperature of the spark plug. He is using slang for a higher electrical power (watts) spark.

  16. #16
    Regional Director
    VOA Member
    since 2013
    Ontario
    J TNT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Ontario,MCVO,PA,OH
    Posts
    2,161
    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    A hotter spark plug refers to the actual temperature of the spark plug. He is using slang for a higher electrical power (watts) spark.
    Good to see some understand electrical theory..........
    White Mamba ,

  17. #17
    Enthusiast GTS Dean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    New Braunfels, TX
    Posts
    530
    Call me old fashioned, but I really like the look of a well-executed set of plug wires.plug wires.jpg

  18. #18
    VOA Member
    since 2018
    Arizona
    Martyb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    257
    Quote Originally Posted by GTS Dean View Post
    Call me old fashioned, but I really like the look of a well-executed set of plug wires.plug wires.jpg
    100% agreed!
    98 GTS
    70 LS6 Chevelle
    2014 Ftype V8S

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    A hotter spark plug refers to the actual temperature of the spark plug. He is using slang for a higher electrical power (watts) spark.
    Thanks for the clarification.

    So its P = Volts x Icurrent = V2/R(esistence in ohms) = I2 x R

    Quote Originally Posted by J TNT View Post
    Good to see some understand electrical theory..........
    Typical underhanded, snide, judgemental remark from a Regional Director of the Viper Owners Association.
    2008 Very Viper Orange SRT-10 Coupe * The Orange Lure (Black On Orange)
    2015 Black Porsche Mid-Engine Cayman * The Black Caiman (Orange On Black)

  20. #20
    VOA Mamba Member
    since 2018
    Alabama/Tennessee
    pokeyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    297
    Working on the final harness.

    IMG_0104.jpg

    IMG_0106.jpg

    IMG_0112.jpg

    IMG_0109.jpg
    You can teach a dog to fetch, therefore you teach a potato to dance! “Amazingly Bad Analogy”

  21. #21
    VOA Member
    since 2013
    Alabama/Tennessee
    99RT10's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Banned
    Posts
    2,959
    Great Job Robert!!!
    09 ACR With all the goodies
    99 ACR TT 99 red RT/10 Roe S/C
    97 B/W RT/10 TT 94 RT/10 TT

  22. #22
    Enthusiast
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    MacDill AFB
    Posts
    232
    So all in all, what's the benefit from OEM other than loosing individual plug wires? Still a wasted spark ignition system...just using COP vs. OEM coils. I would presume these COP won't last when cycled x2 as a wasted spark ignition..and as such, plug voltage would presumably suck. I doubt any COP is used on a wasted spark ignition. Dan...correct or validate my assertions.

  23. #23
    The primary benefit is the correct polarity for the spark in all cylinders. Secondary benefit is short and consistent resistance in all cylinders. I.E. short or no wires.

  24. #24
    Regional Director
    VOA Member
    since 2013
    Ontario
    J TNT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Ontario,MCVO,PA,OH
    Posts
    2,161
    Another Main Benefit is less induction loss's (Hysteresis) at High RPM.
    White Mamba ,

  25. #25
    Enthusiast
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    MacDill AFB
    Posts
    232
    I don't see any difference in polarity with "this" COP implementation vs. the OEM/plug wire system....and since these COP devices were designed to cycle (discharge) once per 720 degrees of rotation and will be forced to discharge twice over 720 degrees of rotation, I see bad spark voltage and discharge efficiency being a primary shortcoming; ergo overdriving their design specs...especially at high RPM. Just my arm chair perspective. I'm all about trying new things...believe me I have some real one-off systems on my GTS...but I don't try and alter the laws of physics with my projects.


 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •