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  1. #26
    Supporting Vendor JonB ~ PartsRack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herrsss View Post

    How did the loan happen? The officers (with the founders' approval) voted to take the loan out to buy us time to cover balance of 2021 expenses (magazines, HQ operations, website, D&O insurance renewal, mag print cost on the club credit card etc.)
    Who are these Founders? Elected? Appointed? Do they have bylaw authority to approve / disapprove Officer actions?

    I noticed that Award-winning Debbie B was let-go from her Viper Quarterly position. She was a paid contractor? Wasn't her salary and VOA admin, 'covered' by the SBA loan?
    Last edited by JonB ~ PartsRack; 09-28-2021 at 07:04 PM.
    Jon "JonB" Brobst ~~~~:<~ JonB@PartsRack.com


  2. #27
    Beth Perry Sewell
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB ~ PartsRack View Post
    1) Sponsors blamed first ? This Sponsor, paying 2 clubs 200,000+ since 96, did not diminish our VOA sponsorship level even $1 .

    2) The lead-in above says 'our NVE was a slight loss'.......but later details $70,000+ in losses.

    3) Why would a Not-For-Profit Social Club (as opposed to charitable, educational, religious, etc) even be eligible for taxpayer-subsidized loans in the first place? Seems inappropriate. Dodge Marketing Pros of 1992-2000 would roll over in their graves at the thought. The optics of taxpayers helping fund Rich-Guy-Florida-Car-Parties is terrible. Embarrassing.

    By contrast, Viper Days just completed a successful rich-guy-car-party that donated $50K to a true charity.

    4) What official role do the above-signed 'VOA Founders' play under the bylaws? BOD liability costs? Has the member-liability and other insurances, costing $20K+, ever had a claim?

    5) Several old-timers mailed me and asked my thoughts. So against local advice, I have replied. Bannings anyone? Nahhhh
    Jon,

    1. You and PartsRack has been a wonderful long term sponsor of the forums and we've been able to maintain some but others bailed when members quit buying stuff from them. Advertisers disappeared completely.

    2. I'm sorry I wasn't clear on NVE4: Cancellations cost $100,000 in refunds partially offset by later registrants so the event itself had about a $70,000 deficit then add in the auction and merchandise sales which covered about $50,000 of the deficit so the net was roughly $20,000.

    3. This was an SBA loan open to all for profit and non profit organizations. The loan was applied for in September and approved by the SBA which is well past your taxpayers helping fund Rich-Guy-Florida-Car-Parties

    - Viper Days was successful in acquiring sponsors. All NVE4 sponsors bailed . . . oh, did I miss your name on the NVE4 list since you did sponsor Viper Days?

    4. VOA Founders were tapped for their assistance in helping us navigate this disaster. I do not think there have ever been claims against any of the VOA's insurance policies but will have to check records to verify.

    5. I'm not going to respond to that silly comment.
    '08 Venom Red Roadster with ACR aero
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  3. #28
    Beth Perry Sewell
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB ~ PartsRack View Post
    Learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it.

    No true treasury reporting since 2019. That watered-down charade clearly indicated an upside-down NVE situation. Big $$ Shortfall obvious. How about real P+L statements going forward? Or even a current one?

    The loan amount of $175,000 = almost exactly $100 per every paid member.
    P&Ls are printed in the magazine annually. I just sent over 2020 to Maurice for the next mag.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JonB ~ PartsRack View Post
    Who are these Founders? Elected? Appointed? Do they have bylaw authority to approve / disapprove Officer actions?

    I noticed that Award-winning Debbie B was let-go from her Viper Quarterly position. She was a paid contractor? Wasn't her salary and VOA admin, 'covered' by the SBA loan?
    Founders: Maurice Liang and Alex Ristanovic

    Maurice made the decision about a year ago to let Debbie B go so no, she wouldn't have been covered by anything other than club operations.
    '08 Venom Red Roadster with ACR aero
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  4. #29
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    BTW, does anyone proof these letters? “I’ll take responsibility..” then signed by unnamed
    officers etc. You could raise the dues to $300 and I wouldn’t care—it’s just the hangover from VCA of lack of transparency about details.
    17 GTS-R, (sold) 92 Viper, (Lutz VIN 00002) , 06 Heritage Ford GT, 19 Ferrari 488 Pista,
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  5. #30
    Beth Perry Sewell
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    Quote Originally Posted by braunstein82 View Post
    Is the slide presentation from last week's president meeting, which I hear shows some of the financials and plan to recover, available for members to see? I hear conflicting arguments from lots of people about what was presented. Including the plan to recover, the NVE amounts and what is supposed to happen to the 2021 regional dues which have not yet been sent to the regions. Not wanting to add fuel to the fire but we need to be clear and open to one another and put any rumors to rest.
    We have another meeting scheduled tomorrow evening with another slide presentation and I hope we can finish making decisions since several action items have not been discussed or voted on yet (mainly region dues). If we finish as I hope, my plan is to post both presentations for everyone to review.

    I have also forwarded a very detailed Excel workbook to each Region President to review ahead of tomorrow's meeting. This workbook contains 2021 Jan-Aug actual blended with Sept-Dec budget, 2021, 2022 and 2023 budget broken out by item by month and a breakdown of recently received Wilson invoices.
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  6. #31
    Regional President
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    Quote Originally Posted by braunstein82 View Post
    Is the slide presentation from last week's president meeting, which I hear shows some of the financials and plan to recover, available for members to see? I hear conflicting arguments from lots of people about what was presented. Including the plan to recover, the NVE amounts and what is supposed to happen to the 2021 regional dues which have not yet been sent to the regions. Not wanting to add fuel to the fire but we need to be clear and open to one another and put any rumors to rest.
    Thanks for the reply and I look forward to hearing the details of tomorrows meeting and the previous.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herrsss View Post
    We have another meeting scheduled tomorrow evening with another slide presentation and I hope we can finish making decisions since several action items have not been discussed or voted on yet (mainly region dues). If we finish as I hope, my plan is to post both presentations for everyone to review.
    THIS ^^^^^


    I think it's important to let the meetings, and voting by the VOA National Officers (who are also your regional Presidents) to be completed. Give them time to vote, and lay out the path forward.

    Hopefully some of the other Officers who voted will step into this thread and help answer members questions.
    Use the Report a post feature... It works!

  8. #33
    Supporting Vendor JonB ~ PartsRack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper Girl View Post
    THIS ^^^^^


    I think it's important to let the meetings, and voting by the VOA National Officers (who are also your regional Presidents) to be completed. Give them time to vote, and lay out the path forward.

    Hopefully some of the other Officers who voted will step into this thread and help answer members questions.
    I think Beth signed for all of em so they left her alone 'in the wind'
    Jon "JonB" Brobst ~~~~:<~ JonB@PartsRack.com


  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB ~ PartsRack View Post
    I think Beth signed for all of em so they left her alone 'in the wind'
    I think you are correct!
    Use the Report a post feature... It works!

  10. #35
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    How much debt is the club in?
    $175k loan…


    Is it over or under that?
    2009 SSG ACR Hardcore 1 of 1 before it was cool

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  11. #36
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    If its decided to withhold the regions dues from national for 2021 I will be joining a VOA Region as an associate member.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mopar'er no car View Post
    If its decided to withhold the regions dues from national for 2021 I will be joining a VOA Region as an associate member.
    Your Regional President has a vote in the upcoming meeting. Make sure your President understands your thoughts on dues.
    Use the Report a post feature... It works!

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper Girl View Post
    Your Regional President has a vote in the upcoming meeting. Make sure your President understands your thoughts on dues.
    I really haven't spoken with him since they voted me out of my Secretary position over email... Besides the point he dosent care what our members opinions are.
    Last edited by Mopar'er no car; 09-28-2021 at 10:05 PM.
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  14. #39
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    Tough decisions for sure. Still cannot comprehend how finances went south so fast and so far. If I understand it per Beth's comments NVE4 is only contributing -$20k to the problem. So a much bigger problem is apparent, that is so far unstated. Current membership is 1741 per this site. Not sure what it was in prior years though. That means the deficit is somewhere around $100 per current member. Given that membership fees contribute less than $100 per year per person to the national club this seems like a multi year way over budget problem (how does that happen???). The choices I have heard here and elsewhere are:
    - Increase dues to $150/195. Includes a gift certificate of $20/35 (which would probably go unused for many members).
    - Eliminate printed newsletter for regular members
    - Decrease/eliminate portion of dues that goes to locals

    What does the leadership think will happen with this combination? I can tell you that associate memberships at the locals will increase as there is no apparent benefit for the $150 (-$20 if you buy goods at the store) regular membership over an associate membership, especially in a non NVE year. Priniting costs will increase on a per unit basis as printed copy numbers plummet. National events will fail, much worse than Covid years. From my poorly informed perspective this is the definition of a death spiral.

    My advice, which is worth all of zero cents, is to fix the economic leak. It must be a big freaking leak. If it is related to the "award winning" newsletter then downsize it. We really don't need the super glossy, extremely heavy weight paper and such. Get volunteer labor instead of paid labor (the locals find a way to do that in regions that create one). If it is something else (which is not clear what it could be) fix it. Then create a work plan that gets us back to above water over a number of years. Not all in one year as it appears is being discussed. You do not want the solution to be more painful than the problem, which the above recommendations appear to try to do just that. Remember membership numbers are elastic and will be directly impacted by the cost, and the value potential members place on it.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mopar'er no car View Post
    If its decided to withhold the regions dues from national for 2021 I will be joining a VOA Region as an associate member.
    I don't think you can do that according to the club's bylaws. You have to join the national club first. Then you can be an associate member of as many regions as you like.
    2008 Viper ACR
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  16. #41
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    Has there been any consideration for past car owners to have some kind of associate membership as a way to increase revenue? As I continue to search for a GEN V, it was disappointing to me that that just because I sold my car, I can no longer be a member, and as a result, "lost" my ability to interact with Club friends, members, and events. It was not this way for my Porsche nor my 2 BMW memberships (car & motorcycle).

    I can resonate with ViperSRT's comments. This entire situation should of had a level of transparency to the membership as it developed, including the risks associated with NVE4. I hope the board will take the necessary longer term actions to prevent the aforementioned "spiral".
    2008 Venom Red Coupe -- Sold moving toward a GEN V.
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  17. #42
    Regional President
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    Hello its Mark Prez of the UK Region, I will be having a meeting with my members to discuss the latest events.

    But the bottom line is speaking with my Vice Prez and Treasurer is that we are not happy at all. I received a email from National and the figures quoted of the losses were eye watering! At this moment in time I not going to disclose that but there have been some serious failings.

    The main thing the UK Region gets from membership is the magazines, yes there is the forum but there are also many "enthusiasts" on here and there are all the Facebook pages.

    Being outside of the USA we are not covered by liability insurance so as a region we set up our own UK Public liability club insurance costing us around $160 per year. So apart from a membership card and magazine there is not much for us.
    The NVE events cost big money for our members to attend and of course they can't attend with their cars.

    Yes there are Vendor discounts but when you add duty and shipping costs, sorry to say these do not equate to much.
    The discount vouchers being mentioned also would not mean much to us either as again the overseas shipping and duty kill the idea.

    We currently have 24 members, not the biggest region for sure, but now being asked to pay more to receive less makes no sense.

    The national officers may not like my blunt words but it "feels" like VCA all over again!

    Even if the club had lost $2 or $3000 dollars I would still be angry and would want to know exactly why, so it should never happen again!

    I will await the outcome of the meeting tonight (these are too late for me to attend, starting at midnight UK time and the last one lasted 3 hours)!

    Membership costs for us have always been an issue. Also the fact that membership runs 1st Jan to 31st Dec, this is another issue, With Christmas, spending money is always tight for membership, cars are stored for winter and its not until mid spring that the car show season kicks off again but by then you would have already missed out on one magazine and the main time I get interest from people wishing to join up with the region is in the summer when we are out and about at shows, it makes no sense to join mid year and not receive a full years membership.

    I plan for all current UK members to take a vote on weather they wish to pay increased memberships or weather we finally break away from the VOA
    and leave this sad mess behind.
    Sincerely
    Mark Kidman
    Prez
    VOA UK Region.
    Last edited by Fatboy 18; 09-29-2021 at 07:39 AM.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back In Black View Post
    I don't think you can do that according to the club's bylaws. You have to join the national club first. Then you can be an associate member of as many regions as you like.
    Associate memberships have ZERO to do with the National VOA.
    Last edited by Mopar'er no car; 09-29-2021 at 07:36 AM.
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  19. #44
    Regional President
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    I also wish to add, I notice the Club is already planning for the next NVE. Well quite simply, you are gambling with members money and the fact that the club is in serious debt you should be putting your brakes on until the books are back in the Green IMO. Only then should you start thinking about holding a National Event! I don't know if you use the same term we use in the UK but its like Robbing Peter to Pay Paul, and at some point it only takes one weak link in that loop to break and down we go again!

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mopar'er no car View Post
    Associate memberships have ZERO to do with the National VOA.
    From the ByLaws section on this forum.
    Article II, section 1
    Region Associate Member: One who pays the Region a fee as determined by that Region for
    the Regional associations amenities. Regions may not accept applications from any owners of
    Dodge/SRT Vipers, or any other vehicles that provide eligibility for Active Membership, unless the
    applicant is already an Active Member registered with the National Office. Members of one Region
    may be Associate Members of other Regions at the discretion of the Region. Region Associate
    Members may be invited to events as observers. Region Associate Members may be granted privileges
    at the discretion of the Region. The Regions may set their own guidelines for Associate members.

    I've looked into this as a lot of my regional members have been asking about it. The way I read this you have to be a member of the national club then you can join whatever region as an associate.
    2010 Laguna Seca ACR 1:33 #27

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by snopro440 View Post
    From the ByLaws section on this forum.
    Article II, section 1
    Region Associate Member: One who pays the Region a fee as determined by that Region for
    the Regional associations amenities. Regions may not accept applications from any owners of
    Dodge/SRT Vipers, or any other vehicles that provide eligibility for Active Membership, unless the
    applicant is already an Active Member registered with the National Office. Members of one Region
    may be Associate Members of other Regions at the discretion of the Region. Region Associate
    Members may be invited to events as observers. Region Associate Members may be granted privileges
    at the discretion of the Region. The Regions may set their own guidelines for Associate members.
    I guess our region had interpreted this last sentence a bit differently.

    When time comes, I'll have to see what the guys and gals do up north...
    Last edited by Mopar'er no car; 09-29-2021 at 09:53 AM.
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  22. #47
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    I am sorry but where there is smoke there is fire. NVE4 is not the reason the club is 175K in the red. Covid is not the reason either.

    Here are my concerns... Ya I pay whatever $200 a year, who cares right... I understand there are expenses ( magazine) and other stuff but, where is the 100K?
    -There was never an outside agency that conducted an audit, we audited it ourselves... Its like investigating your own car accident, it is not a full and fair investigation.
    -That the club pays this loan off and majically the VOA goes bye bye and we still arent sure where this 100K went. Was it in someones pockets?, were we cyber hacked and the bank account drained?, was it simply bad accounting?

    If it was bad accounting I suspect unless there is major change, nothing will change...ever
    With the lack of information to the members, this is actually boardering a criminal investigation for a possible fraud. From the first email minimizing the situation and simply asking for more member dues to cover loss, this was not transparent.

    Maybe this President and board should be asking for some help from the Corvette club on how they handle finances if this has not already been done.
    Again, what do I get for my membership dues? My regional club provides me everything I need and we even have our own little magazine that is actually pretty nice and as a bonus, I do not have to pay them more money to cover missing funds.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboy 18 View Post
    Hello its Mark Prez of the UK Region, I will be having a meeting with my members to discuss the latest events.

    But the bottom line is speaking with my Vice Prez and Treasurer is that we are not happy at all. I received a email from National and the figures quoted of the losses were eye watering! At this moment in time I not going to disclose that but there have been some serious failings.

    The main thing the UK Region gets from membership is the magazines, yes there is the forum but there are also many "enthusiasts" on here and there are all the Facebook pages.

    Being outside of the USA we are not covered by liability insurance so as a region we set up our own UK Public liability club insurance costing us around $160 per year. So apart from a membership card and magazine there is not much for us.
    The NVE events cost big money for our members to attend and of course they can't attend with their cars.

    Yes there are Vendor discounts but when you add duty and shipping costs, sorry to say these do not equate to much.
    The discount vouchers being mentioned also would not mean much to us either as again the overseas shipping and duty kill the idea.

    We currently have 24 members, not the biggest region for sure, but now being asked to pay more to receive less makes no sense.

    The national officers may not like my blunt words but it "feels" like VCA all over again!

    Even if the club had lost $2 or $3000 dollars I would still be angry and would want to know exactly why, so it should never happen again!

    I will await the outcome of the meeting tonight (these are too late for me to attend, starting at midnight UK time and the last one lasted 3 hours)!

    Membership costs for us have always been an issue. Also the fact that membership runs 1st Jan to 31st Dec, this is another issue, With Christmas, spending money is always tight for membership, cars are stored for winter and its not until mid spring that the car show season kicks off again but by then you would have already missed out on one magazine and the main time I get interest from people wishing to join up with the region is in the summer when we are out and about at shows, it makes no sense to join mid year and not receive a full years membership.

    I plan for all current UK members to take a vote on weather they wish to pay increased memberships or weather we finally break away from the VOA
    and leave this sad mess behind.
    Sincerely
    Mark Kidman
    Prez
    VOA UK Region.
    We have a large number of our regions members that aren't that active and are "just here for the mag". This will effectively hurt membership #s across the board for this fact alone, couple that with the price increase and things start to seem a bit scary...

    Myself and others would more than welcome a price increase, but not under these circumstances.
    Last edited by Mopar'er no car; 09-29-2021 at 10:14 AM.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACRucrazy View Post
    How much debt is the club in?
    This is the first question.
    The second is when do resignations start?
    2006 SRT-10

  25. #50
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    Honestly, this club has been on this course from the beginning. I’ve called it out several times and have butted heads in the past over how it’s ran very similar to the VCA.

    • Forcing sponsors to pay thousands of dollars is a recipe for failure.
    • Preventing small companies from participating without paying sponsorship only hurts the owners. It prevents innovation and growth to a very small platform that needs all it can get.
    • Thinking people need to PAY to view the forums will fail. The VOA does not own the content. The forum members, paying or not make the VOA.
    • Forums are dead. They have been dead for a decade. They serve a purpose for information repository, but in general they are dead.
    • Social media is king. Yes each day is new. That’s why it needs constant attention. You want growth, you need a proper social media platform. The fact the VOA didn’t even know they didn’t own the 8,000+ member FB page until this year is all I need to know about the current leadership and how disconnected they are. The fact that they try and rule social media like they do the forums means failure.
    • If any member, mamba or not, national or regional thinks for even a minute we NEED national for anything they are mistaken. National provides nothing. The value is with the regions. The regions are where growth happens. The regions are where true friendships are made. I don’t need VOA to meet new people outside my region, I can do that easier and for free on social media.
    • The magazines are a nice to have. I have a stack of them unopened. They are not a need to have. I would continue to buy them, I have every copy from the very first one in the 90s. I’m of the opinion the magazines should be an optional subscription to ANYONE with a cost of it’s decided they will continue.
    • The annual badges and membership packets are a complete waste of money. The “freebies” included are a complete waste of money. The mailing of these items is a complete waste of money. Who uses this crap?
    • Club insurance? Dare I say waste of money..
    • NVE track days? If the club doesn’t have hundreds of thousands in the bank.. waste of money..
    • The VOA store? Dare I say waste of money? We actually pay another company to handle items we sell?! What?! I’ve had a credit to the store for years for recommending the VOA to new members, have never used it.
    • Charging people to post items in the classifieds?! Ha! I can post to social media for free, reach a greater audience and get better, quicker results.


    In private discussions other clubs and memberships are compared. To that I say what are you comparing? What other club charges AND SPENDS what we do for a single model, low production car that is no longer made?

    Corvettes? 10s of thousands a year for nearly 75 years… not comparable.
    Porsche? Lamborghini? Ferrari? All several different models a year with much greater production than a Viper..

    The fact that the club spent over a half of a million dollars in 2021 is mind boggling. The fact that it’s “being discovered” just now how much debt the club is in a failure of leadership at the highest level. The highest level that is on the way out the door leaving the nearly 300k debt for the next round of officers to deal with.

    Good job. You repeated history by resisting change and not listening to new members.

    The VOA needs a complete restructure to survive. Sponsors are not coming back, people won’t pay to view the forums just like the VOA won’t pay me to post.

    I have so much more I want to say, more I want to share with any member who wants to listen. Knowing the true numbers is completely mind blowing.

    You want to continue with “the way it’s always been” while raising the price, offering less and handing over more than a quarter million dollars of debt including a 30 year government loan? Fuck off you’re nuts.
    2009 SSG ACR Hardcore 1 of 1 before it was cool

    2017 SSG ACR-eXtreme 1 of 1 after it was cool


 
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