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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by V10Sidepipes View Post
    This is the first question.
    The second is when do resignations start?
    For those of us that are not in the loop (did not receive the magic spreadsheet, etc) how there is any debt is a huge question. If it is not NVE4 related it gets even more of concern, as that is the one explainable Covid related activity that resulted in losses - though now explained as only a $20k loss. Unlike the VCA time there are no side businesses like Viper Parts USA (that we know of) or inside paid employees (that we know of) so what could it be. Without more transparency the cause of such a large debt is a huge black cloud. I still find it hard to believe the VOA can broadcast dues for next year BEFORE determining what percentage, if any, will go to the local clubs. That is truly putting the cart before the horse.

    As for resignations I don't think that is appropriate. Unless it is shown these losses stem from impropriety or reckless activity. If so resignations should be the of lower concern than other actions.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mopar'er no car View Post
    I guess our region had interpreted this last sentence a bit differently.

    When time comes, I'll have to see what the guys and gals do up north...
    There has been quite a bit of "loose interpretation" of the by-laws.
    2008 Viper ACR
    2009 Viper SRT-10X | 190mph Standing Mile | 10.76@133.7mph 1/4 Mile

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACRucrazy View Post
    Honestly, this club has been on this course from the beginning. I’ve called it out several times and have butted heads in the past over how it’s ran very similar to the VCA.

    • Forcing sponsors to pay thousands of dollars is a recipe for failure.
    • Preventing small companies from participating without paying sponsorship only hurts the owners. It prevents innovation and growth to a very small platform that needs all it can get.
    • Thinking people need to PAY to view the forums will fail. The VOA does not own the content. The forum members, paying or not make the VOA.
    • Forums are dead. They have been dead for a decade. They serve a purpose for information repository, but in general they are dead.
    • Social media is king. Yes each day is new. That’s why it needs constant attention. You want growth, you need a proper social media platform. The fact the VOA didn’t even know they didn’t own the 8,000+ member FB page until this year is all I need to know about the current leadership and how disconnected they are. The fact that they try and rule social media like they do the forums means failure.
    • If any member, mamba or not, national or regional thinks for even a minute we NEED national for anything they are mistaken. National provides nothing. The value is with the regions. The regions are where growth happens. The regions are where true friendships are made. I don’t need VOA to meet new people outside my region, I can do that easier and for free on social media.
    • The magazines are a nice to have. I have a stack of them unopened. They are not a need to have. I would continue to buy them, I have every copy from the very first one in the 90s. I’m of the opinion the magazines should be an optional subscription to ANYONE with a cost of it’s decided they will continue.
    • The annual badges and membership packets are a complete waste of money. The “freebies” included are a complete waste of money. The mailing of these items is a complete waste of money. Who uses this crap?
    • Club insurance? Dare I say waste of money..
    • NVE track days? If the club doesn’t have hundreds of thousands in the bank.. waste of money..
    • The VOA store? Dare I say waste of money? We actually pay another company to handle items we sell?! What?! I’ve had a credit to the store for years for recommending the VOA to new members, have never used it.
    • Charging people to post items in the classifieds?! Ha! I can post to social media for free, reach a greater audience and get better, quicker results.


    In private discussions other clubs and memberships are compared. To that I say what are you comparing? What other club charges AND SPENDS what we do for a single model, low production car that is no longer made?

    Corvettes? 10s of thousands a year for nearly 75 years… not comparable.
    Porsche? Lamborghini? Ferrari? All several different models a year with much greater production than a Viper..

    The fact that the club spent over a half of a million dollars in 2021 is mind boggling. The fact that it’s “being discovered” just now how much debt the club is in a failure of leadership at the highest level. The highest level that is on the way out the door leaving the nearly 300k debt for the next round of officers to deal with.

    Good job. You repeated history by resisting change and not listening to new members.

    The VOA needs a complete restructure to survive. Sponsors are not coming back, people won’t pay to view the forums just like the VOA won’t pay me to post.

    I have so much more I want to say, more I want to share with any member who wants to listen. Knowing the true numbers is completely mind blowing.

    You want to continue with “the way it’s always been” while raising the price, offering less and handing over more than a quarter million dollars of debt including a 30 year government loan? Fuck off you’re nuts.
    Just plain Wow! $300k in debt. 'Splain that to us.

  4. #54
    VOA Mamba Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back In Black
    Will the regions be getting their annual stipend?
    Quote Originally Posted by Herrsss View Post
    That is up to the board to make that decision via a vote
    Did the regions receive their portion of 2021 dues?
    2000 Viper RT/10 (Steel Gray) BEENBIT
    2006 Viper SRT10 (VOI9 Edition) R3PTILE

  5. #55
    Supporting Vendor JonB ~ PartsRack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herrsss View Post
    P&Ls are printed in the magazine annually. I just sent over 2020 to Maurice for the next mag.

    I respectfully disagree.... the published half-page VQ 'reports' are "statements of cash flows" or most recently published "2019 Revenue and Expense Statement." Essentially worthless and dated.

    Perhaps publish the 2020 P+L now? Instead of in a longer-delayed next VQ mag?

    Maurice has it.... dated as it is, but more relevant now than in more months away.
    Last edited by JonB ~ PartsRack; 09-29-2021 at 02:07 PM.
    Jon "JonB" Brobst ~~~~:<~ JonB@PartsRack.com


  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickB View Post
    Did the regions receive their portion of 2021 dues?
    I can only speak for my region but no, we have not received all of our 2021 dues.
    '01 Sapphire RT/10. '08 Snakeskin Green Vert. "H" spokes, Grey/Black interior, Graphite bezels, NAV, Full Belanger exhaust w/ Hi-Flows, ARROW PCM and Quaife rear end with 3.55's. http://www.westernreservevipers.com

  7. #57
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    Whoa There seems to be a LOT going on.

    I'm one of the new members on here, and not familiar with what happened with or at the VCA. I can only say I personally do like the forum and the magazine a lot. I'm from Europe, which means these are the two things that help me "connect" with the U.S. Viper world the most. If I have to pay a bit more for this, so be it.

    As Mark from the UK mentioned, we don't bring our cars to events in the U.S., and the liability/club insurance is of no use to us from the old world. Items from the store are too expensive for us in general, as we pay VAT, customs and shipping on top. And I agree with ACRucrazy on the "importance" of things like lanyards, annual badges and so on, and many other things he said. I do not agree on the importance of social media though, as this - at least to me - usually is a waste of time. A forum is a dedicated space with a huge database, which social media can not give me. Social media is "now" and then it's forgotten immediately. A forum lives from members, their posts and can be searched for all "eternity" (or as long as someone pays for the webserver and the hosting).

    Just my unimportant $0.02.
    1998 Viper GTS | 2017 Shelby GT350

  8. #58
    VOA Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I do not agree on the importance of social media though, as this - at least to me - usually is a waste of time. A forum is a dedicated space with a huge database, which social media can not give me. Social media is "now" and then it's forgotten immediately. A forum lives from members, their posts and can be searched for all "eternity" (or as long as someone pays for the webserver and the hosting).
    You are not alone in this.

    Social media has its place and uses, but knowledge retention is not one of them.
    2008 SRT-10 Coupe - Venom Red Metallic w/ White Stripes - 1/4 Mile Passes (YouTube)
    High Flow Cats | Gen 5 Intake Man. | UDP | HPT | 3.55s | MCS | DSS Axles | Nth Moto Clutch | 11.027 @ 130.06 (Vid), 1.78 60' (+1,622 ft DA, w/ 3.55s & Hoosier Drag Radials)

  9. #59
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    Social media drives interaction. Interaction drives membership. Historical retention is not what social media is for.

    The unofficial group that the VOA didn’t even start or have any part of has 8,900 members and sees more interaction than these forums will ever see. And that is just 1 Viper group on 1 platform. You might not like what is posted on Facebook, but it will have more traction than this forum. If the VOA can’t accept that and expect the forums to drive membership they will fail.

    The most action this forum sees these days are “the latest viper on BaT” threads.
    2009 SSG ACR Hardcore 1 of 1 before it was cool

    2017 SSG ACR-eXtreme 1 of 1 after it was cool

  10. #60
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    Hearing about your plan for recovery which is based on maintaining 1700 members and even then cuts it close. 1700 even thou we have had lower memberships each year last few years. This situation alone will cause a loss of membership. 50% of our regions membership don't even attend events, and it has always been that way. So they are here for the magazine, site and love of viper. Their will be a loss of people just because the price raise and lesser on the magazine. Those combined, I could easily see a drop in membership of 20% or more.

    Should we not factor that into the recovery plan or would it mean recovery isn't even possible?

    I also hear that the back dues are going out to the regions. Which is good. Does that mean the debt is actually higher than first presented or was national keeping those funds not factored in the total debt?

    Thanks all for your fast responses and handling of this stressful situation.

    By they way I have talked at least 5 people into joining thru to Facebook, 5 I got credit for. None outside of it. So social media presence definitely helps membership. Not really the discussion for this thread thou in my opinion. There is an old post for that in the off topic section of this forum.
    Last edited by braunstein82; 09-30-2021 at 01:36 PM.
    98 GTS (sold)
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperSRT View Post
    Remember membership numbers are elastic and will be directly impacted by the cost, and the value potential members place on it.
    Anyone who thinks for a moment that memberships will be stable with a substantial cost increase and decreasing benefits is living in la la land.

  12. #62
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    I guess whats caught in my mind, as a new member this year. I never got any of the magazines. I have no problem with an increase in fee, but I feel like things are being hidden.

    Based on the post, it appears there was a board meeting last night. And no statement today, no info.

    We all know it was discussed...

    Several times the direct question of "how much debt is there" has been ignored.
    Dave
    98 Viper GTS

  13. #63
    VOA Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACRucrazy View Post
    Social media drives interaction. Interaction drives membership. Historical retention is not what social media is for.

    The unofficial group that the VOA didn’t even start or have any part of has 8,900 members and sees more interaction than these forums will ever see. And that is just 1 Viper group on 1 platform. You might not like what is posted on Facebook, but it will have more traction than this forum. If the VOA can’t accept that and expect the forums to drive membership they will fail.

    The most action this forum sees these days are “the latest viper on BaT” threads.
    I guess I'm not seeing the connection. Do you think a substantial portion of that population would be willing to pay money to continue doing what they are already doing for free?
    2008 SRT-10 Coupe - Venom Red Metallic w/ White Stripes - 1/4 Mile Passes (YouTube)
    High Flow Cats | Gen 5 Intake Man. | UDP | HPT | 3.55s | MCS | DSS Axles | Nth Moto Clutch | 11.027 @ 130.06 (Vid), 1.78 60' (+1,622 ft DA, w/ 3.55s & Hoosier Drag Radials)

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M View Post
    I guess I'm not seeing the connection. Do you think a substantial portion of that population would be willing to pay money to continue doing what they are already doing for free?
    Maybe you are misunderstanding? I think you and I are on the same page.. or maybe I am misunderstanding?
    2009 SSG ACR Hardcore 1 of 1 before it was cool

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  15. #65
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    This is simply unacceptable. All paying members should have access to financial records, full transparency is simply a must especially in this predicament. How in the world are we(you) $300k in debt? As mentioned previously, increasing dues by 70% will not help membership retention, quite opposite actually as members will not renew (myself included) for less benefits and higher cost. Utilizing an in house CPA is not the way to go, organizations need independent reviews to keep everything in check.

    Unfortunately it sounds like there's a substantial lack of financial responsibility and accountability. If the VOA were to survive, major changes would need to be implemented ASAP. Lucrative recruiting is a must, forums are dead, great for information but not so much for brand exposure. The Viper is discontinued, a small number will continue to be wrecked beyond repair as time goes which equals less possible or current member, have any of these fine details been taken into consideration? As great as it sounds this organization can't plan "in the moment" and needs to shift mentality into the "future of the organization". How many events were planned and executed based on hypothetical numbers that could or more than likely couldn't come to fruition?

    Also, as stated previously not all members attend events, when plans are made how are they financially calculated? Are they based on the probability of what number of members would show up?

    So many questions, not enough answers.

    I love the VOA and I've made some great friends but we need to do better, I will not be contributing to a sinking ship, if we are all wrong in our assessment please prove it so.
    2009 SSG Coupe
    2002 RT/10 (sold)

  16. #66
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    Built by Viper owners for Viper owners
    The VOA was founded by Maurice Liang and Alex Ristanovic. It was established in 2013 with the help of other passionate Viper owners. Their objective was to build a club that is well-organized, professional, transparent, and above all... fun!
    https://driveviper.com/club/
    2009 SSG ACR Hardcore 1 of 1 before it was cool

    2017 SSG ACR-eXtreme 1 of 1 after it was cool

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACRucrazy View Post
    Maybe you are misunderstanding? I think you and I are on the same page.. or maybe I am misunderstanding?
    Not sure, probably doesn't matter. I think we are both in agreement that the board (whoever they are) is out of touch with reality.

    I joined as a member knowing full well I didn't care about the magazine, nor did I intend on going to any regional events. That hasn't changed. I enjoy the community support this forum offers, but I think I might be in the minority. But that's why I was willing to pay for the first time last year. Now I'm not sure what I'll do for this next year. Let's just say I'm not in a rush to do anything at the moment given the current circumstances.

    From my view (and I sit in the cheap seats), the VOA board seems to be obsessed with the magazine. I know there are folks that like it, but for me, it is a total waste of time, effort, and based on what I've gleaned from this thread, costs a whole boatload of money. No doubt it is super high quality in form, but not so much in function. The ground has been well plowed for this platform, so aside from a bunch of pictures of Vipers parked together at an event, there really isn't much more to talk about. Keeping that "perk" afloat just doesn't make sense to me, especially since it seems to be the sole cause of the rate hike (based on the initial post in this thread). And I can already hear the canned response "If you don't like it, you should contribute!" Yeah, no.

    Does anyone know how much of our dues go to the magazine? Maybe that info is in the magazine, and I just haven't looked closely enough
    2008 SRT-10 Coupe - Venom Red Metallic w/ White Stripes - 1/4 Mile Passes (YouTube)
    High Flow Cats | Gen 5 Intake Man. | UDP | HPT | 3.55s | MCS | DSS Axles | Nth Moto Clutch | 11.027 @ 130.06 (Vid), 1.78 60' (+1,622 ft DA, w/ 3.55s & Hoosier Drag Radials)

  18. #68
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    ....
    Last edited by stevert; 09-30-2021 at 04:46 PM.

  19. #69
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    Article IX (Miscellaneous Provisions) Section 3 (Reports) of the club bylaws states:

    Financial accounting records shall be made available to any Member upon written request.
    I am a member and this formal request is in writing. Please make available any and all financial accounting records (specifically organization P&Ls) for periods beginning in Q1 2019.
    2006 SRT-10

  20. #70
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    Just FYI at 3:59pm, I PM'd Beth so she is aware of the request.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M View Post
    Not sure, probably doesn't matter. I think we are both in agreement that the board (whoever they are) is out of touch with reality.

    I joined as a member knowing full well I didn't care about the magazine, nor did I intend on going to any regional events. That hasn't changed. I enjoy the community support this forum offers, but I think I might be in the minority. But that's why I was willing to pay for the first time last year. Now I'm not sure what I'll do for this next year. Let's just say I'm not in a rush to do anything at the moment given the current circumstances.

    From my view (and I sit in the cheap seats), the VOA board seems to be obsessed with the magazine. I know there are folks that like it, but for me, it is a total waste of time, effort, and based on what I've gleaned from this thread, costs a whole boatload of money. No doubt it is super high quality in form, but not so much in function. The ground has been well plowed for this platform, so aside from a bunch of pictures of Vipers parked together at an event, there really isn't much more to talk about. Keeping that "perk" afloat just doesn't make sense to me, especially since it seems to be the sole cause of the rate hike (based on the initial post in this thread). And I can already hear the canned response "If you don't like it, you should contribute!" Yeah, no.

    Does anyone know how much of our dues go to the magazine? Maybe that info is in the magazine, and I just haven't looked closely enough
    $148k for the magazine in 2021..
    2009 SSG ACR Hardcore 1 of 1 before it was cool

    2017 SSG ACR-eXtreme 1 of 1 after it was cool

  22. #72
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    My information shows

    The club took in $226k through August including some expenses that were refunded with another $2200 in membership dues since.

    The club spent $441k though August including NVE4 refunds, Viper Quarterly etc.

    The club is budgeted to spend another $197k through the end of the year for the magazine and other debt.

    The club took out a $175k loan on top of the above.

    I’ve been looking at this all day trying to make sense of it.

    My math says in 2021 the club has taken in $229k, spent or will spend $638k PLUS took out a $175K loan.

    Any renewals in the next 2-3 months is not straight income IMO. It’s a contract, to pay regions their share and members their magazines for next year. Both of these have a cost associated with them.

    That and I have no idea where the club was standing before the first of the year.
    Last edited by ACRucrazy; 09-30-2021 at 04:33 PM.
    2009 SSG ACR Hardcore 1 of 1 before it was cool

    2017 SSG ACR-eXtreme 1 of 1 after it was cool

  23. #73
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    From what I have seen so far (I will not indicate sources) it is impossible to determine true debt. That said it appears to be around $450k (ignoring assets like store merchandise not included in the cash flow numbers), and not the $300k mentioned before. As ACRucrazy mentioned, they included the loan in income without anything on the debit side.

    No clear cost reduction measures proposed either except for reduced number of magazines or reducing the payments to regions. Someone needs to get real. We cannot publish an award winning magazine that in total ($141k) costs almost all of the membership fees to national.

    Somehow in all their accounting they ignore the effects of the $20 and $35 store coupons as if either they won't be redeemed or the merchandise will be at zero cost. That is a big chunk of change and cannot be overlooked.

    With a CPA on the board I would expect to see statements of cash flow (past and forecast) AND a Balance Sheet, so that a true understanding of net worth and future solvency can be determined.

  24. #74
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    Yep, I’ve heard a few different totals from different sources. I’ve seen different documents (that were not clear in any sort of fashion) so I went through those and copied the info to my own sheet. It made things much easier to see what’s going on (without knowing the truth to it all)

    I’m glad I am not the only one who saw the $175 loan added as income and not factoring in the debt of it..

    The credit to the store is laughable! How does that solve anything, it’s gotta come from somewhere… unless the goal is to reduce the store merchandise we are paying another company to manage, sell and ship out.
    2009 SSG ACR Hardcore 1 of 1 before it was cool

    2017 SSG ACR-eXtreme 1 of 1 after it was cool

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperSRT View Post
    Somehow in all their accounting they ignore the effects of the $20 and $35 store coupons as if either they won't be redeemed or the merchandise will be at zero cost. That is a big chunk of change and cannot be overlooked.
    That whole program would, in many cases, result in even more complications to the financial reporting depending on what standard accounting practices are used. Bet the discounts come with a pretty short window before expiration.

    On the other hand, I would bet the margins in the store are pretty healthy and the calculations the board has run show between store margins and unused redemptions that it’s a net win for them.
    2006 SRT-10


 
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