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  1. #76
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    For those asking for the numbers, it's my understanding that National will be emailing 2019, 2020 & 2021 ytd to all current members this weekend.
    Use the Report a post feature... It works!

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperSRT View Post
    Anyone who thinks for a moment that memberships will be stable with a substantial cost increase and decreasing benefits is living in la la land.
    Agree 100%. That is 1 reason why there are two levels of membership already. Both will decrease with the association of reduced perceived value. This whole thing is a mess and should have, and could have , been avoided.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACRucrazy View Post
    We've obviously strayed away from the aspirational comments on the home page. Transparency most of all. Everyone of us can handle bad news. We each manage our own business every day (our household). I can't even imagine having a conversation like the one unfolding here with my spouse or grown kids. Especially, after the fact.

    Since I'm relegated to being an Enthusiast (since I sold my car and looking for another), I'll temper my comments.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper Girl View Post
    For those asking for the numbers, it's my understanding that National will be emailing 2019, 2020 & 2021 ytd to all current members this weekend.
    Why are we hearing this from you, and why isn’t it readily available now? And by now I guess I mean yesterday, the day before, last week..

    My comments are not an attack on you, rather me thinking out loud.
    Last edited by ACRucrazy; 09-30-2021 at 06:52 PM.
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACRucrazy View Post
    Why are we hearing this from you, and why isn’t it readily available now? And by now I guess I mean yesterday, the day before, last week..

    My comments are not an attack on you, rather me thinking out loud.
    Just me trying to be helpful ACR... I see a lot of ppl jumping in asking about the financials, and making a public request. Why shouldn't I share info I know?
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper Girl View Post
    Just me trying to be helpful ACR... I see a lot of ppl jumping in asking about the financials, and making a public request. Why shouldn't I share info I know?
    My comment was directed at why National has been so silent and the forum moderator is answering questions.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACRucrazy View Post
    My comment was directed at why National has been so silent and the forum moderator is answering questions.
    Like I said, I saw some posts and decided to share what I know with members who were asking.

    As to why National Officers aren't in here, couldn't tell ya. Maybe they are working on the issues...


    Edit: maybe you are asking if "they" sent me out here? um. NO
    Last edited by Viper Girl; 09-30-2021 at 08:15 PM.
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  8. #83
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    No I am not asking if “they” sent you here.
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  9. #84
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    I have been contemplating a response to the email I got "explaining" the increases in dues for 2022. As a former region president, transparency was always our watchword in our club. I always, as did other presidents, had the treasurer make our financial position known. Of course, we never had the expenses of the national club, but the expense we incur for the yearly Tail of the Dragon is not insignificant and requires careful budgeting. Those of you who have been around for a while remember that one of the major reasons the Viper Owners Association was started was primarily for poor fiscal management by the former club. I certainly hope that this is not a repetition of past sins. And yes, I know Covid has put the screws to a lot of things but I'm not sure previous national events were fiscally sound either.

    My own thoughts are these. The magazine is too expensive and should be digital so we can save them on our computer rather than piling them up. A hard look needs to be taken at the cost of the national events. I'll be honest, I can't afford - perhaps justify is a better word - to go the national events because $2000+ plus is just too much money. Maybe we need to consider more of the Bucket List style regional events where costs can be controlled and folks don't have to drive so far. Most of all, we need to see an accounting of what has been spent and what is budgeted for the next few years.

    The VOA has a lot going for it. The website is very good and a lifeline for Viper owners spread out over the globe. Bucket list events have been very successful and don't stress the financial strength of the national club. The new membership fees won't break me, but I'm not sure it is good value for the return. Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by Joel; 09-30-2021 at 09:09 PM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperSRT View Post
    From what I have seen so far (I will not indicate sources) it is impossible to determine true debt. That said it appears to be around $450k (ignoring assets like store merchandise not included in the cash flow numbers), and not the $300k mentioned before. As ACRucrazy mentioned, they included the loan in income without anything on the debit side.

    No clear cost reduction measures proposed either except for reduced number of magazines or reducing the payments to regions. Someone needs to get real. We cannot publish an award winning magazine that in total ($141k) costs almost all of the membership fees to national.

    Somehow in all their accounting they ignore the effects of the $20 and $35 store coupons as if either they won't be redeemed or the merchandise will be at zero cost. That is a big chunk of change and cannot be overlooked.

    With a CPA on the board I would expect to see statements of cash flow (past and forecast) AND a Balance Sheet, so that a true understanding of net worth and future solvency can be determined.
    Correction for debt estimate should be $315k based on cash asset account value of $135k. Emphasizing the need for a balance sheet with the statement of cash flow.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by quickster2 View Post

    Since I'm relegated to being an Enthusiast (since I sold my car and looking for another), I'll temper my comments.
    Um, YEA! But maybe a realization that just a little bit late in the thread?
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by City View Post
    Um, YEA! But maybe a realization that just a little bit late in the thread?
    Not clear if that was a dig. I believe as quikster has been a VOA member for some time prior to the recent sale (i.e. during the debt accumulation phase) and that he is a former FCA CAAP plant manager (where Vipers were built), his opinions should have some value. That is he is not the typical "enthusiast."

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperSRT View Post
    Not clear if that was a dig. I believe as quikster has been a VOA member for some time prior to the recent sale (i.e. during the debt accumulation phase) and that he is a former FCA CAAP plant manager (where Vipers were built), his opinions should have some value. That is he is not the typical "enthusiast."
    I completely agree regarding his opinions. However, not being an association member and thereby having no skin in this specific financial discussion, IMO, his comments, any comments (positive or negative) are inappropriate. As would be the same of any other non-member. Nonetheless, unlike the "former" club, we don't delete what a moderator might consider inappropriate.
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  14. #89
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    This is a post from Mrs. Rapps,
    Mr. Rapps did not write this nor was he aware I’ve posted


    It is very sad that VOA has been bankrupt. How this came about is obvious- spending more than you have. Who did the spending and why the expenses were approved, seems to be a mystery. I looked at the P&L statements published in the VQ but the information is so splintered it’s useless. I’m hoping amongst our Presidents there are individuals who can sort through the financials and find out what went wrong.

    Because the current Board members are on their way out (or should voluntarily leave, considering their dismal, lackluster service to us), there is a very important issue to address.

    If I’m understanding it correctly nominations for VOA Board is happening now, with a vote soon.

    What I don’t see are members, who possess the skills to be on the board, putting their name out here to be nominated. If you want to save this club, more of the same people on the Board isn’t going to do it. If no one is willing to step up, let’s finish killing VOA off now. If no member is qualified or willing the VOA party is over. All the pontificating in the world doesn’t mean squat if no one steps up.

    If anyone currently on the Board is running, IMO they have already demonstrated that they are not qualified to serve members. If they can’t see what is staring them in the face, that the club is broke, that they kept it quiet and didn’t tell anyone for months, please don’t re-elect them. They are the people who in apparent desperation thought taking a 175K loan was a good idea. Same ones who think raising dues and cutting benefits is not only OK, but don’t think it’ll cause members to leave. Defies logic.

    Last thing which perplexes me are the members and regional Presidents who either thank or sing praises about the very people who got VOA into this position. Where’s the logic in that? The very people who allowed, created or turned a blind eye to this financial disaster and did not sound an alarm to anyone and your response is “oh thank you for doing such a lousy job”?
    Defies logic.

    VOA give us the money members paid for local budgets, you were only the custodian of it, it’s the property of each region. It should of been in our bank accounts months ago.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapps View Post
    This is a post from Mrs. Rapps,
    Mr. Rapps did not write this nor was he aware I’ve posted


    It is very sad that VOA has been bankrupt. How this came about is obvious- spending more than you have. Who did the spending and why the expenses were approved, seems to be a mystery. I looked at the P&L statements published in the VQ but the information is so splintered it’s useless. I’m hoping amongst our Presidents there are individuals who can sort through the financials and find out what went wrong.

    Because the current Board members are on their way out (or should voluntarily leave, considering their dismal, lackluster service to us), there is a very important issue to address.

    If I’m understanding it correctly nominations for VOA Board is happening now, with a vote soon.

    What I don’t see are members, who possess the skills to be on the board, putting their name out here to be nominated. If you want to save this club, more of the same people on the Board isn’t going to do it. If no one is willing to step up, let’s finish killing VOA off now. If no member is qualified or willing the VOA party is over. All the pontificating in the world doesn’t mean squat if no one steps up.

    If anyone currently on the Board is running, IMO they have already demonstrated that they are not qualified to serve members. If they can’t see what is staring them in the face, that the club is broke, that they kept it quiet and didn’t tell anyone for months, please don’t re-elect them. They are the people who in apparent desperation thought taking a 175K loan was a good idea. Same ones who think raising dues and cutting benefits is not only OK, but don’t think it’ll cause members to leave. Defies logic.

    Last thing which perplexes me are the members and regional Presidents who either thank or sing praises about the very people who got VOA into this position. Where’s the logic in that? The very people who allowed, created or turned a blind eye to this financial disaster and did not sound an alarm to anyone and your response is “oh thank you for doing such a lousy job”?
    Defies logic.

    VOA give us the money members paid for local budgets, you were only the custodian of it, it’s the property of each region. It should of been in our bank accounts months ago.
    Full agreement.
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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by City View Post
    Um, YEA! But maybe a realization that just a little bit late in the thread?
    FYI I had reached out to Beth when I sold my vehicle to see if there was some way to maintain my Mamba membership to no avail. I was part of the VOA when NVE4 was being planned and then executed. There is no realization on my part that my comments are "late in the thread". This is a public forum and this mess is playing out in real time with little disclosure nor transparency from most involved. If I found a car tomorrow, my plan would be to immediately renew my Mamba membership. Would that make my comments any less or more relevant? I think not.

    If the board would of reached out to the membership, in advance, as this situation unfolded, I'm confident there would be valuable input from 100's of folks. Most people defer to the position of being part of a solution not the problem. Taking a shot at someone who demonstrated a commitment to the marque well beyond buying a car and paying dues.......that's your choice.
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by quickster2 View Post
    FYI I had reached out to Beth when I sold my vehicle to see if there was some way to maintain my Mamba membership to no avail. I was part of the VOA when NVE4 was being planned and then executed. There is no realization on my part that my comments are "late in the thread". This is a public forum and this mess is playing out in real time with little disclosure nor transparency from most involved. If I found a car tomorrow, my plan would be to immediately renew my Mamba membership. Would that make my comments any less or more relevant? I think not.

    If the board would of reached out to the membership, in advance, as this situation unfolded, I'm confident there would be valuable input from 100's of folks. Most people defer to the position of being part of a solution not the problem. Taking a shot at someone who demonstrated a commitment to the marque well beyond buying a car and paying dues.......that's your choice.
    I'm sorry you feel that way. I never challenged your "provenance" with the VOA, your dedication to Vipers and Viper owners and your best intent to rejoin the association.

    My only issue is with your opining in the forum with regard to this specific topic. If you're not a "shareholder" of a company, again IMO, you don't get to participate in company policy. You are entitled to read about it, but not to participate.

    Again, I'm not stopping you here, but at a minimum, you should be able to handle some criticism.
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  18. #93
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    as a regional officer who doesn't get to sit in on the Presidents meetings I would like to weigh in on the current issues:
    1. Current debt as illustrated by the board is 274K
    2. The board is currently showing the 175K loan as income instead of debt so if you combine the two you have 449K of debt
    3. The business plan I have seen rides on the club maintaining 1700 members with a 850/850 split between regular and mamba members. - This is incredibly unrealistic as the plan shows only a $864.00 profit. If you loose 5 members the plan is sunk. The plan does not take into account any sort of member attrition. I can tell you right now they can count me as 1 of the 5 members they can't afford to lose.
    4. The plan should be based on 1000 active members.
    5. The national VOA provides almost zero benefit to the regions. They throw a "decent" party every couple of years. I am saying "decent" simply to be nice. NVE4 was so bad that my wife and I left early.
    6. National has continued to pay money for deposits for NVE5 when they need to walk away from the event entirely
    7. Regional events are the way of the future. Lower TCO - Only pay if you want to go. Instead the way it is today have of the money you give to national goes to an event that only 1/3 of the members attend.
    8. The store needs to go away. Liquidate and then donate what ever is left over.
    9. Sorry to say, but a printed magazine is a thing of the past. - Digital or honestly drop it all together as most of the content in the last few issues is simply about what other regions have done for events. If you want to know about Vipers than pickup a copy of the books that Maurice has written.
    10. On the latest spreadsheet there was a line item removed - Previous versions show 18K for a Presidents meeting. WTF......This is a volunteer organization.
    11. What exactly are we reimbursing Beth 20k for on her personal card?
    12. Covid is not the reason this club has failed.
    13. Current board is not entirely responsible for the failure. The issues go back several National Presidents.
    14. The writing on the wall is there. This club is going to fail on a national level unless they choose the nuclear option of bankruptcy and then start over.......
    15. Since they won't go that route I hop all of the regional clubs are able to break off and stay together. For example I hope my region breaks off and starts the Carolinas Viper Club. Perhaps even with zero dues and pay as you go events.
    16. I hope the admin of the site has a backup of the forums and can post this information again after the club fails. I will even host the site on one of my servers if I need to.

  19. #94
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    I'm not aware of the $175K loan that is being referenced in this thread. Is it possible that it is similar to the PPP loans which are commonly forgiven?
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  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by City View Post
    I'm not aware of the $175K loan that is being referenced in this thread. Is it possible that it is similar to the PPP loans which are commonly forgiven?
    It’s a $175,200 loan that was applied for, approved and funded last month for 30 years at 2.75%.
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  21. #96
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    Well said MoparJohn and unfortunately I agree on every point. I got my first Viper in 2013 when the original club was collapsing, I cannot fathom how 8 years later this one is breaking apart for similar financial reasons.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by City View Post
    I'm not aware of the $175K loan that is being referenced in this thread. Is it possible that it is similar to the PPP loans which are commonly forgiven?
    YIKES !!!
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  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by City View Post
    I'm sorry you feel that way. I never challenged your "provenance" with the VOA, your dedication to Vipers and Viper owners and your best intent to rejoin the association.

    My only issue is with your opining in the forum with regard to this specific topic. If you're not a "shareholder" of a company, again IMO, you don't get to participate in company policy. You are entitled to read about it, but not to participate.

    Again, I'm not stopping you here, but at a minimum, you should be able to handle some criticism.
    For the record I did not take your comments as criticism. You took no issue with my comments nor challenged what I wrote. Myself, and others that have weighed in here, only want to see the club righted. If I was drowning, I would welcome help from wherever it was offered. As ViperJohn, ViperSRT, and others have mentioned, there are very basic accounting functions that need to be put in place to make the club viable again. If you go back to Beth's original post on this thread, that path forward will not get it done. Best of luck to the Group.
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  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason View Post
    Well said MoparJohn and unfortunately I agree on every point. I got my first Viper in 2013 when the original club was collapsing, I cannot fathom how 8 years later this one is breaking apart for similar financial reasons.
    As someone who has been with both clubs since their inceptions, and had some inside information regarding the other club years prior to its eventual failure I believe the two are completely different except that financials are a big part of each. In the VCA failure included an internally formed for profit company (that scared off supporters) and internal paid salary positions, and the corruption that drives, were a big part. In addition the leadership had a dictatorial perspective that provided lots of angst through the forums and other communications. That combination caused it to slide off the fiscal cliff. In this case I see a few similarities. One is the magazine and those involved. It has become a huge expense (no idea how long as we have only seen financials that could be separated for 2021) with paid internal elements that became an elephant. Its current expenditure level exceeds previous national income levels by itself. It is driven by a founder of the VOA, which provides substantial political capital such that the magazine proper, and its aforementioned pay structure, were excluded from any belt tightening proposals. IT IS THE ANCHOR THAT WILL PULL THIS BOAT UNDER. Other aspects like do we really need an external company to facilitate operations for 1700 members? Set up volunteer committees to handle both the magazine and operations. The second similarity may not be as visible. The leadership has mentioned that there are no longer any sponsors. Not sure how much influence it has had but we observed club arranged purchasing opportunities that bypassed sponsors. Not good for a long term sponsor arrangement. Building sponsors takes time and effort. The membership probably expects that to be one of the functions of the board, and I concur.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by quickster2 View Post
    ..................Since I'm relegated to being an Enthusiast (since I sold my car and looking for another), I'll temper my comments.........

    Feel free to use the category of LEGACY MEMBER.
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