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  1. #101
    Supporting Vendor JonB ~ PartsRack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper Girl View Post
    For those asking for the numbers, it's my understanding that National will be emailing 2019, 2020 & 2021 ytd to all current members this weekend.

    Historic perspective: This club is a Not-For-Profit social club. The IRS awarded that status, and ANY person can ask the VOA organization / Treasurer for past tax returns.

    GUIDESTAR is a resource for some of those returns. Guidestar.org ANYONE can retrieve 2019, for example, not just members. Guidestar shows FY 2019 VOA reported $410K of cash on hand with NO other assets and no liabilities. That tax return was signed by the VOA Treasurer. Guidestar.org and search Viper Owners Association.

    If this all sounds vaguely familiar, its because some of us with skin in the game got curious and asked these same type of questions back in 2009-10. Start with Guidestar, and jump to the 'cash flow' report of 2019 in VQ.

    'Skin In The Game' = paying dues in the affected period(s) even if not paying dues NOW.
    Last edited by JonB ~ PartsRack; 10-01-2021 at 01:16 PM.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB ~ PartsRack View Post
    Historic perspective: This club is a Not-For-Profit social club. The IRS awarded that status, and ANY person can ask the VOA organization / Treasurer for past tax returns.

    GUIDESTAR is a resource for some of those returns. Guidestar.org ANYONE can retrieve 2019, for example, not just members. Guidestar shows FY 2019 VOA reported $410K of cash on hand with NO other assets and no liabilities. That tax return was signed by the VOA Treasurer. Guidestar.org and search Viper Owners Association.

    If this all sounds vaguely familiar, its because some of us with skin in the game got curious and asked these same type of questions back in 2009-10. Start with Guidestar, and jump to the 'cash flow' report of 2019 in VQ.

    'Skin In The Game' = paying dues in the affected period(s) even if not paying dues NOW.
    The silence from the National is deafening..
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACRucrazy View Post
    $148k for the magazine in 2021..
    Wow ACR, if that figure is correct it works out to $87.00 per member at 1,700 members!! I enjoy the magazine and I have all the VOA issues and all but say 3 of the VCA magazines. When I'm dead my wife can sell them on BAT!

    MoparJohn, lot's of great points in your post.


    Really sorry to be reading all of this and while not exactly the same flow as the demise of the VCA, the future of the National Club does not look good, and the first heads up to members a few days ago evolved from a price increase to wow the VOA is really broke!

    I've been a paying member to both clubs since '96. Made lots of friends and learned a ton. I like the forum and the magazine, when the VOA comes to Vegas I'm in. I've been fortunate to have always been in 2 very active regions, Phoenix and SoCal. In addition I've always lived close to either Eddie Martin or Dan Cragin both of whom are super Viper Techs. Both regions have a number of events for the members and as I've said to our last 3 presidents and to my viper buddies, if 1/2 the money goes into the presidents pocket, I don't care, I don't have the time to do all they do!

    Like most Viper owners I'm concerned a whole lot more about Biden's potential new taxes on capital gains then a $40.00 bump in dues. I hope after this gets all sorted out the Forum remains and the local chapters stay enthused. I get that people that like the FB sites but there is so much garbage to sort through, the only ones I look at are the for sale sites. A number of folks mentioned regional events and I think that's the best route. Hoping for the best down the road. Mike
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  4. #104
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    I've been VCA, VOA, etc. I touted the VOA name as loudly as anyone back in 2013 when we moved the Carolinas region to VOA as President. However, I simply cannot support the club when there are unrealistic projections in the budget. Many have already mentioned that 1,700 members will never happen next year. I mentioned it in the President's meeting on Wednesday night along with another President. I feel the club will be lucky to have 1,400 members for 2022, and I'm afraid that may be overly optimistic. Show us some conservative numbers in the budget instead of dreamer numbers. Show us how this will work with 1,300 members please?

    I also mentioned in the meeting that the club is overcomplicated. Like many have said here, eliminate the printed magazine and go electronic, or if you have to have a printed magazine, do bi-annual issues. Instead of NVE, like Joel mentioned above, have bucket list events with planning assistance of the regions. Cut expenses by omitting the 800 number....e-mail only. Omit the member package, badges, and gift. Only ~10% of our region wear their badges. Anyway, with Vipers out of production, less cars, less members, y'all need a restructuring plan, not an excessively optimistic budget plan, especially when we're ~$250k in the hole plus interest.
    Last edited by Brian GTS; 10-01-2021 at 02:17 PM.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB ~ PartsRack View Post
    Feel free to use the category of LEGACY MEMBER.
    Legacy Member it is Jon. I'd pay for that privilege if they would take my money. Take care.
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  6. #106
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  7. #107
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    To hopefully shed a little light...

    The purpose of the $175k loan is to pay down the debt many have noted which is due now, or soon, and a "current" liability. While that debt is being paid off the unused portion of the loan funds are sitting in the club bank account and would be an asset on the balance sheet. For that reason the loan is currently an increase to liabilities obviously, but fully offset by an equal increase in assets.

    I'm not entirely sure, but I think NVE's have generally all made money except for Miami, which would have had Covid not caused many to back out and request refunds. NVE 2018 in Las Vegas definitely did make money. So NVE's have not always been a drain on funds, but rather have improved them. They are not the problem.
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  8. #108
    Ed Massena
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    To hopefully shed a little light...

    The purpose of the $175k loan is to pay down the debt many have noted which is due now, or soon, and a "current" liability. While that debt is being paid off the unused portion of the loan funds are sitting in the club bank account and would be an asset on the balance sheet. For that reason the loan is currently an increase to liabilities obviously, but fully offset by an equal increase in assets.

    I'm not entirely sure, but I think NVE's have generally all made money except for Miami, which would have had Covid not caused many to back out and request refunds. NVE 2018 in Las Vegas definitely did make money. So NVE's have not always been a drain on funds, but rather have improved them. They are not the problem.
    Thank you Bruce - that's correct.

    The $175K loan was secured to provide financial flexibility and avoid using 2022 member dues to pay remaining bills from 2021. The total debt number of 229K is being misquoted by some as an actual number — that number is what the debt COULD HAVE BEEN if the board decided to change nothing at all about the remainder of 2021.

    NVE events are a break-even proposition within themselves, but the auctions and store sales that come along with NVE can generate significant revenue - 60K or more. For the Miami NVE, the VOA issued over 100k in refunds on registrations. No one to blame for that, just the circumstances of the world in 2020-21. But the net result was, even after really significant auction and store sales, Miami did not generate rainy-day-funds like NoLa or Vegas.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    To hopefully shed a little light...

    The purpose of the $175k loan is to pay down the debt many have noted which is due now, or soon, and a "current" liability. While that debt is being paid off the unused portion of the loan funds are sitting in the club bank account and would be an asset on the balance sheet. For that reason the loan is currently an increase to liabilities obviously, but fully offset by an equal increase in assets.

    I'm not entirely sure, but I think NVE's have generally all made money except for Miami, which would have had Covid not caused many to back out and request refunds. NVE 2018 in Las Vegas definitely did make money. So NVE's have not always been a drain on funds, but rather have improved them. They are not the problem.
    Miami as awesome as it sounded was never a consideration for myself and some others I spoke to, because of how isolated it was. Not centrally located, basically it was a major haul for many. I have no doubt Covid contributed, but to me, it wasn’t the only reason.
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  10. #110
    Ed Massena
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACRucrazy View Post
    Miami as awesome as it sounded was never a consideration for myself and some others I spoke to, because of how isolated it was. Not centrally located, basically it was a major haul for many. I have no doubt Covid contributed, but to me, it wasn’t the only reason.
    Absolutely - The extreme corners of the US are bound to be tough for some. I flew in and rented a car, and it was not 'the same' for sure.
    But huge registration numbers are not a requirement for the revenue part. The event budget was smaller than Vegas by a proportionate amount and would have made money comparably if it weren't for travel restrictions and (understandably) health concerns.
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  11. #111
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    Are You BRIAN K, former VOA NATL PREZ from 2016- '18?


    Good Advice....


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GTS View Post
    I've been VCA, VOA, etc. I touted the VOA name as loudly as anyone back in 2013 when we moved the Carolinas region to VOA as President. However, I simply cannot support the club when there are unrealistic projections in the budget. Many have already mentioned that 1,700 members will never happen next year. I mentioned it in the President's meeting on Wednesday night along with another President. I feel the club will be lucky to have 1,400 members for 2022, and I'm afraid that may be overly optimistic. Show us some conservative numbers in the budget instead of dreamer numbers. Show us how this will work with 1,300 members please?

    I also mentioned in the meeting that the club is overcomplicated. Like many have said here, eliminate the printed magazine and go electronic, or if you have to have a printed magazine, do bi-annual issues. Instead of NVE, like Joel mentioned above, have bucket list events with planning assistance of the regions. Cut expenses by omitting the 800 number....e-mail only. Omit the member package, badges, and gift. Only ~10% of our region wear their badges. Anyway, with Vipers out of production, less cars, less members, y'all need a restructuring plan, not an excessively optimistic budget plan, especially when we're ~$250k in the hole plus interest.
    Last edited by JonB ~ PartsRack; 10-01-2021 at 05:23 PM.
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB ~ PartsRack View Post
    Are You BRIAN K, former VOA NATL PREZ from 2016- '18?


    Good Advice....
    My term was short. I was only involved a for a few months in 2016 and needed to resign.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    To hopefully shed a little light...

    The purpose of the $175k loan is to pay down the debt many have noted which is due now, or soon, and a "current" liability.
    According to post 27 from Beth, NVE was a $20,000 loss for the org. Even if we say “ok, COVID, I get it” for that, it is only 10% of the loan amount…

    What’s the other debt and how much is the total? I saw $274k above but there has been no “official” response given. That’s a lot of magazines if we want to keep blaming them.
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  14. #114
    Ed Massena
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    Quote Originally Posted by V10Sidepipes View Post
    According to post 27 from Beth, NVE was a $20,000 loss for the org. Even if we say “ok, COVID, I get it” for that, it is only 10% of the loan amount…

    What’s the other debt and how much is the total? I saw $274k above but there has been no “official” response given. That’s a lot of magazines if we want to keep blaming them.
    To close the loop on that,

    Total debt is $175,300 (the total loan amount). We will satisfy everything owed from now through the end of 2021 with minimal need to use 2022 dues (which happens in a normal year anyway, cash flow timing, etc.)

    The need for that 175K came from a few sources. You're right, Covid's impact on NVE4 is not all of it. It does, however, account for 60-70K worth, because NVE should have produced a positive in the 45K range (if everyone could attend who initially registered). The rest of the need for it came from gradual drops in advertising, sponsorship, and membership revenue during 2019, 2020, 2021. Those revenue drops were coming in small bites, and appeared to be offset by NVE registrations beginning also in 2019. So while the annual revenue dropped below expenses, the bank account was healthy, all bills were paid, and the shortfall was missed.

    A related point worth clarifying - There was not any ‘extra’ spending added over the last 7 years. Mild cost increases with inflation on existing items like insurance, yes, but no big additions to the spending. Obviously, red ink can be interpreted as too much spending or too little revenue (or both), but it's worth mentioning that the revenue side was the only part really changing.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACRucrazy View Post
    Miami as awesome as it sounded was never a consideration for myself and some others I spoke to, because of how isolated it was. Not centrally located, basically it was a major haul for many. I have no doubt Covid contributed, but to me, it wasn’t the only reason.
    I believe ~100 members had registered, paid and were going to Miami and then requested refunds because of Covid. At $500 pp that's a huge amount. And on top of that there were something like another 35 that had paid and just didn't show up at the last minute. That was a lot of money burned, so figuring at least some may have been sick or concerned about getting sick.

    Every member in Ontario that had paid to go, including my wife and I, couldn't due to border restrictions. The impact of Covid alone actually did prevent NVE4 from breaking even or turning a profit, no question, remote as South Florida was to most.

    400 members attended an event budgeted for 550 I believe were the numbers.
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  16. #116
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    I’m not disputing that fact, I saw the $66k on NVE refunds.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by V10Sidepipes View Post
    According to post 27 from Beth, NVE was a $20,000 loss for the org. Even if we say “ok, COVID, I get it” for that, it is only 10% of the loan amount…

    What’s the other debt and how much is the total? I saw $274k above but there has been no “official” response given. That’s a lot of magazines if we want to keep blaming them.
    That was a lot of magazines for years, but it was also an impact accumulated over a lot of years from numerous large expenses, not just the mag which was by far the largest. This debt was accumulated over a number of years, and under a number of presidents, not just Beth.

    And as Ed pointed out, the debt number you're looking at wasn't debt as of now, but by the end of the year after publishing another two Viper Quarterly mag issues if 2022 renewal funds weren't used to pay for it. 2022 dues should be used for 2022 expenses, not 2021.
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  18. #118
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    This situation understandably makes a lot of members angry. And venting of anger is sure to continue, but also be aware that there are a lot of minds working on turning around a bad situation for the benefit of all members. And I hear there are some heavy hitters in the running to join the leadership team in January intent to do just that.

    The problems have been identified and the VOA needs time to work through solutions to address them. Let's try to give them that time because cutting them down won't make the job at hand any easier, or go any quicker, just the opposite.
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    That was a lot of magazines for years, but it was also an impact accumulated over a lot of years from numerous large expenses, not just the mag which was by far the largest. This debt was accumulated over a number of years, and under a number of presidents, not just Beth.

    And as Ed pointed out, the debt number you're looking at wasn't debt as of now, but by the end of the year after publishing another two Viper Quarterly mag issues if 2022 renewal funds weren't used to pay for it. 2022 dues should be used for 2022 expenses, not 2021.
    Bruce you are right, its not all Beth's fault. When Alex was president, during a president's meeting I mention were were not going to be able to afford the quarterly magizine, which I think Beth was privy to as being the VOA VP at the time, and I that our membership would more than likely decrease with the termination of the Viper program. So the info was out there, but neither one of the last two presidents listened to the advice. During this thread topic, I asked Beth why didn't we just cancel the NVE4 event, her reply was not sure if the hotel and other events would let us. So that means the National officers never even tried to cancel. My wife and I were going to two major concert events, one was a two-day concert in Madison Square Gardens and The other concert in Charlotte NC, both were canceled due to COVID. So, yes in my opinion both are responsible. Should have know, we would have reduce revenues coing in after the the Viper was discontinued and that there would be 20-30 percent drop in the NVE4 attendance...

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GTS View Post
    I've been VCA, VOA, etc. I touted the VOA name as loudly as anyone back in 2013 when we moved the Carolinas region to VOA as President. However, I simply cannot support the club when there are unrealistic projections in the budget. Many have already mentioned that 1,700 members will never happen next year. I mentioned it in the President's meeting on Wednesday night along with another President. I feel the club will be lucky to have 1,400 members for 2022, and I'm afraid that may be overly optimistic. Show us some conservative numbers in the budget instead of dreamer numbers. Show us how this will work with 1,300 members please?

    I also mentioned in the meeting that the club is overcomplicated. Like many have said here, eliminate the printed magazine and go electronic, or if you have to have a printed magazine, do bi-annual issues. Instead of NVE, like Joel mentioned above, have bucket list events with planning assistance of the regions. Cut expenses by omitting the 800 number....e-mail only. Omit the member package, badges, and gift. Only ~10% of our region wear their badges. Anyway, with Vipers out of production, less cars, less members, y'all need a restructuring plan, not an excessively optimistic budget plan, especially when we're ~$250k in the hole plus interest.
    I find it concerning that in my opinion we have yet to see a realistic recovery plan, raising prices while simultaneously providing less during an economic downturn is a recipe for disaster. I agree with the above statement you need a viable recovery plan that would still work with 1200 to 1400 members. VOA needs to stop spending uncontrollably until they get everything in order. At this rate I only see this ending in self destruction of their own doing.

  21. #121
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    With all the vagueness, silence, over optimism and redirecting. I think we're causing more distrust. So many of us want this to stay and last but the reality needs to be put out there. I feel national needs to make an honest statement that recovery will be hard and maybe impossible with the plan we have now. With honesty, sincerity, maybe admission of guilt and asking for members help, they just might get. We have many successful and wealthy members in our group that I feel would step in and could help fix the situation. I think current leadership may need to step aside, let someone else step up and come up with a more logical game plan and maybe even ask our members for financial help through a GoFundMe 50/50 or fundraiser. If we could do it for the ring attempt sure we could do it here. But no one's going to donate with that recovery plan or if things stay in the way they are. Lots of ideas have been put out that made lots of sense and ignored. I listen to the last meeting and a lot of things were rushed thru, ignored or not talked about. As much as I respect the people from the past in the impact they have had the reality is they may be part of why we're in this situation and we need to look towards the future and who will be taking us there. Thank goodness we have these forums so stuff like this can be said by regular membership but until the people who make the decisions listenand talk about these ideas or have an open meeting for members to discuss as well, we aren't gonna move forward.
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  22. #122
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    I also strongly feel since this information has been presented after nominations for national were closed. That we reopen nominations and also present who is running thus far and in future post immediately as they become candidates.
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  23. #123
    Ed Massena
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    Quote Originally Posted by braunstein82 View Post
    I also strongly feel since this information has been presented after nominations for national were closed. That we reopen nominations and also present who is running thus far and in future post immediately as they become candidates.
    Nominations are still open. October 15 Deadline for the questionnaire and nomination. We extended the window for exactly that reason.
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    If anyone cares.
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlateEd View Post
    To close the loop on that,

    Total debt is $175,300 (the total loan amount). We will satisfy everything owed from now through the end of 2021 with minimal need to use 2022 dues (which happens in a normal year anyway, cash flow timing, etc.)

    The need for that 175K came from a few sources. You're right, Covid's impact on NVE4 is not all of it. It does, however, account for 60-70K worth, because NVE should have produced a positive in the 45K range (if everyone could attend who initially registered). The rest of the need for it came from gradual drops in advertising, sponsorship, and membership revenue during 2019, 2020, 2021. Those revenue drops were coming in small bites, and appeared to be offset by NVE registrations beginning also in 2019. So while the annual revenue dropped below expenses, the bank account was healthy, all bills were paid, and the shortfall was missed.

    A related point worth clarifying - There was not any ‘extra’ spending added over the last 7 years. Mild cost increases with inflation on existing items like insurance, yes, but no big additions to the spending. Obviously, red ink can be interpreted as too much spending or too little revenue (or both), but it's worth mentioning that the revenue side was the only part really changing.
    Thank you for the detailed insight. Quite helpful to understand things better. If I understand it the primary change in income in the timeframe was the loss of sponsor monies (excluding the 65k or so related to NVE4). If that is true a clear plan for how either to address gaining future sponsor monies or reducing the expenditures to accommodate the reduced level of income is needed. What we have seen so far doesn't seem to address either of those. To the sponsor end has the board addressed why sponsor monies dropped, and what the potential is to regain them or gain new sponsors? And on the expendature side are costs like magazine creation, publication and disribution along with club management costs been addressed? As indicated above the plan needs to not just get back to the black, it has to pay back the debt accumulated in a reasonable time frame.


 
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