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  1. #101
    Enthusiast Fatboy 18's Avatar
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    Might be time for a "CLUB" magazine to be put together by someone else other than Mr Lang.

    Maurice Lang, founder of VCA......
    Advertisements about new books in the magazine written and published be Mr Lang, Did those advertisement pages get paid for by Mr Lang to advertise his new publications?
    VCA goes up in Smoke and again Mr Lang with others sets up a new club and continues with the publishing.
    Were the costs discussed by national before these magazines started to be produced, did anyone at national level look at alternate ways to print and publish a magazine?
    It makes no sense for the club to pay out for an "award winning" magazine which is styled on the DuPont registry which is published for world wide car enthusiast's.
    Its obvious to anyone that a club with reduced membership almost year on year with currently 1756 members could afford such a high class finish publication.

    As Bruce H says, being an international region, a plastic membership card and a Quarterly magazine are mainly the only things we get through the door to link us with the American regions.

    Sure NVE are available to all members, but the reality is we cant attend with our cars and the costing's involved in attending such an event is out of many owners pockets, especially those with families.

    Being an international region, the Club Public liability insurance does not cover us for any events outside of USA so out of region payments we receive, we set up our own Public liability insurance.
    The prices also for Club apparel is too expensive for us when you add on international shipping and duty.

    Yes there is this forum and it has a lot of history, but there are also other places such as the Alley and the old VCA forums too and of course there are the social media platforms.

    I also do not understand in these times why Membership should run per calendar year. I have written to the board about this and asked this to be mentioned, byt many of the Zoom meeting are set at 8pm Eastern time which is 1AM in the UK! Way past my bedtime generally.

    Here is my reasoning for it, Cars get put away for winter, families start spending for Christmas and new year and the cars take a back seat, monies for some are tighter at this time of year. Spring arrives and people start thinking about getting the cars out again, then (my region) start attending indoor car shows where we might have paid out for a club stand and start promoting the club to new owners, by then the 1st quarter magazine has already gone to print so if they do join they only receive 3 magazines instead of 4, and the same goes on into the summer months.
    So I firmly believe members should receive a full 12 months membership what ever time of year they join.

    Of course there are some Vendor discounts too, but these do not amount to much once you add on the international shipping and duty, there are also now many more companies where compatible parts can be found at a cheaper price!

    So having sent out emails and set up a zoom meeting with my regions members, the overwhelming sense is we will not be rejoining as things stand. Of course this is still open to individual members to change their minds, but why should a region being paying more to receive less and the ship keeps sailing on in the same direction.
    Sincerely
    Mark
    UK Region Prez.

  2. #102
    Enthusiast CarolinaViper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboy 18 View Post
    Might be time for a "CLUB" magazine to be put together by someone else other than Mr Lang.

    Maurice Lang, founder of VCA......
    Advertisements about new books in the magazine written and published be Mr Lang, Did those advertisement pages get paid for by Mr Lang to advertise his new publications?
    VCA goes up in Smoke and again Mr Lang with others sets up a new club and continues with the publishing.
    Were the costs discussed by national before these magazines started to be produced, did anyone at national level look at alternate ways to print and publish a magazine?
    It makes no sense for the club to pay out for an "award winning" magazine which is styled on the DuPont registry which is published for world wide car enthusiast's.
    Its obvious to anyone that a club with reduced membership almost year on year with currently 1756 members could afford such a high class finish publication.

    As Bruce H says, being an international region, a plastic membership card and a Quarterly magazine are mainly the only things we get through the door to link us with the American regions.

    Sure NVE are available to all members, but the reality is we cant attend with our cars and the costing's involved in attending such an event is out of many owners pockets, especially those with families.

    Being an international region, the Club Public liability insurance does not cover us for any events outside of USA so out of region payments we receive, we set up our own Public liability insurance.
    The prices also for Club apparel is too expensive for us when you add on international shipping and duty.

    Yes there is this forum and it has a lot of history, but there are also other places such as the Alley and the old VCA forums too and of course there are the social media platforms.

    I also do not understand in these times why Membership should run per calendar year. I have written to the board about this and asked this to be mentioned, byt many of the Zoom meeting are set at 8pm Eastern time which is 1AM in the UK! Way past my bedtime generally.

    Here is my reasoning for it, Cars get put away for winter, families start spending for Christmas and new year and the cars take a back seat, monies for some are tighter at this time of year. Spring arrives and people start thinking about getting the cars out again, then (my region) start attending indoor car shows where we might have paid out for a club stand and start promoting the club to new owners, by then the 1st quarter magazine has already gone to print so if they do join they only receive 3 magazines instead of 4, and the same goes on into the summer months.
    So I firmly believe members should receive a full 12 months membership what ever time of year they join.

    Of course there are some Vendor discounts too, but these do not amount to much once you add on the international shipping and duty, there are also now many more companies where compatible parts can be found at a cheaper price!

    So having sent out emails and set up a zoom meeting with my regions members, the overwhelming sense is we will not be rejoining as things stand. Of course this is still open to individual members to change their minds, but why should a region being paying more to receive less and the ship keeps sailing on in the same direction.
    Sincerely
    Mark
    UK Region Prez.
    Mark

    Great information, as an ex-region president I didn’t realize the disadvantage you guys overseas and Canada have. The club should look into this and reduce your fees drastically as there is no benefit for you guys compared to us in the States. Has this ever been addressed.

  3. #103
    Regional Membership Director
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    J TNT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Mark

    Great information, as an ex-region president I didn’t realize the disadvantage you guys overseas and Canada have. The club should look into this and reduce your fees drastically as there is no benefit for you guys compared to us in the States. Has this ever been addressed.
    Carolina Viper , Good point !
    We have been disadvantaged since 2016 and will be a hard sell going forward ......
    Hoping those at the Helm factor this in going forward .
    Charter Member ,

  4. #104
    Regional President
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Mark

    Great information, as an ex-region president I didn’t realize the disadvantage you guys overseas and Canada have. The club should look into this and reduce your fees drastically as there is no benefit for you guys compared to us in the States. Has this ever been addressed.
    Beth has an initiative to address this with international regions. There's a lot going on quietly in the background.
    VOA 2022 Communication Team Member


    2014 SRT Black TA, 76,000 kms. Last of the 159 built. Thanks to Ralph and Team Viper for an incredible Viper!
    2019 Porsche 911 Turbo S, 22,000 kms.

  5. #105
    Enthusiast CarolinaViper's Avatar
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    Bruce

    Better not make it to quite or to late

  6. #106
    Enthusiast Voice of Reason's Avatar
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    I’m still confused how the board/region presidents decided the right move was to increase dues for next year when none of them knew about the 175k loan when they voted. Do I have the timeline wrong or was that hidden from them?

  7. #107
    VOA Mamba Member
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    13COBRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason View Post
    I’m still confused how the board/region presidents decided the right move was to increase dues for next year when none of them knew about the 175k loan when they voted. Do I have the timeline wrong or was that hidden from them?
    Good question.

    Was it ever disclosed who signed for the loan? Who approved it?

  8. #108
    Regional President
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason View Post
    I’m still confused how the board/region presidents decided the right move was to increase dues for next year when none of them knew about the 175k loan when they voted. Do I have the timeline wrong or was that hidden from them?
    Negative. If I recall correctly this all occurred on the same meeting. The news about the debt may have been shared prior, but it was known at the time of voting on whether or not to increase dues.
    A few words of CAUTION to those who think
    a VIPER looks MEAN, ARROGANT and HOSTILE...
    CUT OUT THE FLATTERY!

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by 13COBRA View Post
    Good question.

    Was it ever disclosed who signed for the loan? Who approved it?
    No, the board was not aware of this until after the fact.
    A few words of CAUTION to those who think
    a VIPER looks MEAN, ARROGANT and HOSTILE...
    CUT OUT THE FLATTERY!

  10. #110
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    Not to forget but the dues increase proposed in September also included gift certificates for the VOA store of $20 and $35 (reg and Mamba) that evaporated in the latest proposal. That translates into a larger annual dues increase. Slight of hand manuever.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loud View Post
    No, the board was not aware of this until after the fact.
    So who signed for it?

  12. #112
    Enthusiast Fatboy 18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    Beth has an initiative to address this with international regions. There's a lot going on quietly in the background.
    I believe there are things going on but we are holding out to see what happens, I also want to see the true costing's of the magazine and who is being paid what.

    I have had some members who joined in the summer still waiting for anything from the VOA! They have had no magazine due to the issue being pulled and are pretty upset and I don't believe they have had a basic membership pack either?

    Now as a Club President I contacted Headquarters about getting a few spare back issues that I could set out on a table to encourage new owners to join the club. There was no discount in prices and the shipping costs were a joke! I had considered using some club funds to pay for the magazines but quite frankly it was not worth the costs.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboy 18 View Post
    I believe there are things going on but we are holding out to see what happens, I also want to see the true costing's of the magazine and who is being paid what.

    I have had some members who joined in the summer still waiting for anything from the VOA! They have had no magazine due to the issue being pulled and are pretty upset and I don't believe they have had a basic membership pack either?

    Now as a Club President I contacted Headquarters about getting a few spare back issues that I could set out on a table to encourage new owners to join the club. There was no discount in prices and the shipping costs were a joke! I had considered using some club funds to pay for the magazines but quite frankly it was not worth the costs.
    I'm still waiting on my membership package as well.

  14. #114
    Regional President
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    The international initiative is currently underway, the store credit is still part of renewals (just missed being mentioned in a recent announcement), the treasurer applied for and signed the paperwork for the loan, and the presidents were informed of it along with the details of the 2022 renewals just prior to a vote that passed the plan with a 67% approval I believe.
    VOA 2022 Communication Team Member


    2014 SRT Black TA, 76,000 kms. Last of the 159 built. Thanks to Ralph and Team Viper for an incredible Viper!
    2019 Porsche 911 Turbo S, 22,000 kms.

  15. #115
    Regional President
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    Quote Originally Posted by 13COBRA View Post
    So who signed for it?
    Unknown, to me at least.
    A few words of CAUTION to those who think
    a VIPER looks MEAN, ARROGANT and HOSTILE...
    CUT OUT THE FLATTERY!

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Loud View Post
    Unknown, to me at least.
    Current treasurer

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboy 18 View Post
    Might be time for a "CLUB" magazine to be put together by someone else other than Mr Lang.

    Maurice Lang, founder of VCA......
    Advertisements about new books in the magazine written and published be Mr Lang, Did those advertisement pages get paid for by Mr Lang to advertise his new publications?
    VCA goes up in Smoke and again Mr Lang with others sets up a new club and continues with the publishing.
    Were the costs discussed by national before these magazines started to be produced, did anyone at national level look at alternate ways to print and publish a magazine?
    It makes no sense for the club to pay out for an "award winning" magazine which is styled on the DuPont registry which is published for world wide car enthusiast's.
    Its obvious to anyone that a club with reduced membership almost year on year with currently 1756 members could afford such a high class finish publication.

    As Bruce H says, being an international region, a plastic membership card and a Quarterly magazine are mainly the only things we get through the door to link us with the American regions.

    Sure NVE are available to all members, but the reality is we cant attend with our cars and the costing's involved in attending such an event is out of many owners pockets, especially those with families.

    Being an international region, the Club Public liability insurance does not cover us for any events outside of USA so out of region payments we receive, we set up our own Public liability insurance.
    The prices also for Club apparel is too expensive for us when you add on international shipping and duty.

    Yes there is this forum and it has a lot of history, but there are also other places such as the Alley and the old VCA forums too and of course there are the social media platforms.

    I also do not understand in these times why Membership should run per calendar year. I have written to the board about this and asked this to be mentioned, byt many of the Zoom meeting are set at 8pm Eastern time which is 1AM in the UK! Way past my bedtime generally.

    Here is my reasoning for it, Cars get put away for winter, families start spending for Christmas and new year and the cars take a back seat, monies for some are tighter at this time of year. Spring arrives and people start thinking about getting the cars out again, then (my region) start attending indoor car shows where we might have paid out for a club stand and start promoting the club to new owners, by then the 1st quarter magazine has already gone to print so if they do join they only receive 3 magazines instead of 4, and the same goes on into the summer months.
    So I firmly believe members should receive a full 12 months membership what ever time of year they join.

    Of course there are some Vendor discounts too, but these do not amount to much once you add on the international shipping and duty, there are also now many more companies where compatible parts can be found at a cheaper price!

    So having sent out emails and set up a zoom meeting with my regions members, the overwhelming sense is we will not be rejoining as things stand. Of course this is still open to individual members to change their minds, but why should a region being paying more to receive less and the ship keeps sailing on in the same direction.
    Sincerely
    Mark
    UK Region Prez.
    I agree about the membership. I ran for the VP role, haven't heard results yet, but part of my thoughts revolve around updating the membership process to support just that. They are using so many antiquated systems that require so much manual input it seems from an outsiders view. Would be easy to support that using something like Stripe to process membership dues.

  18. #118
    Enthusiast Brian GTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason View Post
    I’m still confused how the board/region presidents decided the right move was to increase dues for next year when none of them knew about the 175k loan when they voted. Do I have the timeline wrong or was that hidden from them?
    Everything happened in the same meeting. Financial troubles were announced, $175k loan announced, and then the Pres’s were instructed to vote on 1) Increasing dues, 2) Region funding cutbacks. Many questions about the “what happened” were deflected.

  19. #119
    Again, no bullshit, no hiding the ball , no protecting others —unless there is legal liability which I assume there is not take this all out in the open. I recall giving advice the Maurice and others as VCA cratered . That we are at this point is astonishing to me . Other car clubs don’t deal with this for the most part and I’m a member of a bunch. I have a special place in my heart for Viper as a personal friend of Bob Lutz and others .
    Last edited by Drummerviper; 11-02-2021 at 04:45 AM.
    17 GTS-R, (sold) 92 Viper, (Lutz VIN 00002) , 06 Heritage Ford GT, 19 Ferrari 488 Pista,
    20 Lamborghini Aventador SVJ 18 Ford GT (sold); 19 Ferrari 812 Superfast

  20. #120
    Definition of Independent Auditor:

    "What Is an Independent Auditor?

    An independent auditor is a certified public accountant (CPA) or chartered accountant (CA) who examines the financial records and business transactions of a company with which they are not affiliated. An independent auditor is typically used to avoid conflicts of interest and to ensure the integrity of performing an audit."

    Based on the above, no one who is, or was during the relevant time periods, an officer or director of the VOA, or a Chapter of the VOA, or who is otherwise affiliated with the VOA, or who has a continuing vendor relationship with the VOA, or who has previously done the accounting work for the VOA or any of its chapters, qualifies as an independent auditor for the purpose of determining what happened and the answers to the questions that were raised. Perhaps what has occurred is just a symptom of the fact that production of the car ended with the 2017 model and the club tried to hold onto a reality that ended by maintaining its activity at an unrealistic level when it was inevitable that interest would decline along with membership. It was long overdue that the magazine be on line only. Look how many great magazines had to go that route. And VOIs probably have to be more modest; less frequent; and, cost less to attend. But even with those changes, there were not many Vipers made and, with attrition, a car club like the VOA will continue to fade. It is sad to see but predictable.
    Last edited by Unlimtd; 11-01-2021 at 11:27 PM.
    Semper SRT. Proud owner of 2014 Viper TA, 2019 Challenger Redeye Hellcat, 2018 Trackhawk.

  21. #121
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    There are 3 accountants within the club plus the VOA Treasurer involved. By having that many pretty much covers off the intent of an independent audit in my mind.

    As far as membership goes, the VOA has a very small percentage of owners as members, and have tremendous growth opportunities. We've attracted them to the forum as "enthusiasts" in droves but not provided the value proposition necessary to encourage them to be members. Are the regions failing to offer what the owners are looking for? In many cases that's probably true. What can regions do to improve their appeal...many, many things!

    What can VOA national do? Lots. Magazine costs have to be dramatically cut, and if that isn't possible put it on hiatus or eliminate it altogether. Other costs need to be reduced. Other revenue streams need to be utilized so national can operate with a lot less of the membership revenue. Run lean and mean. And regions need to have the funding to do the really heavy lifting that only they can do at the local level, from an appropriate share of dues and other sources of revenue like sponsorships.

    VOA and the presidents are wrestling with all of this. Change is difficult. The natural tendency is to keep on doing the same thing. But we're discovering the old ways stopped working some time ago, the audit will hopefully make that absolutely crystal clear to all, and necessity will prevail in the end.
    Last edited by Bruce H.; 11-02-2021 at 07:52 AM. Reason: spelling
    VOA 2022 Communication Team Member


    2014 SRT Black TA, 76,000 kms. Last of the 159 built. Thanks to Ralph and Team Viper for an incredible Viper!
    2019 Porsche 911 Turbo S, 22,000 kms.

  22. #122
    Regional President
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    Why not cut the magazine down to twice a year. That would cut alot of cost and I don't think anyone that actually wants to keep the magazine would have an issue with that. Just an idea.
    98 GTS (sold)
    14 GTS (sold)
    06 coupe (sold)
    17 GTC

  23. #123
    As an international member, not part of any region as there are none in Switzerland as it seems, the magazine plus this forum is pretty much all I get. Plastic badges or stickers with a year on it don't mean anything to me personally, so I could not care less about that (and I won't ever put any stickers on my cars). So all the statements by Mark are true for all international members I'd say.

    Is it known how many paying VOA members are national vs. international?

    I wanted to renew my membership the first moment I received the email to do so, but I hesitated because of what's going on. I've never been part of the VCA (been reading there every now and then to keep my Viper passion alive when I had no financial means to buy one, but haven't done so in years). When I found the VOA, I registered to the forums (Enthusiast) a few years ago to keep up-to-date with what's going on with Vipers in the U.S., and I immediately became a paying member the moment I bought my Viper last year. I want to stay a paying member and support the cause, but I also want the club to be healthy and run right. Therefore, I will wait with renewing until after the review to see what comes out of it - and what actions will be taken to get out of this mess.

    No idea how many members want a printed version vs. none (or digital only). Another idea from my side in regard of the magazine: why not make a yearly magazine (like "The VOA in 2021", published in early 2022 for instance) instead of a quarterly magazine? This would save A LOT of shipping and printing costs. It might be a larger issue of course (page wise), but it would give the members something to hold on to. It would allow much more time for content creation. Regions could send in photos and reviews of events, track drivers could share stories and photos, vendors could inform about the latest products for the upcoming season, enthusiasts could share their personal Viper stories, someone with a connection to former factory workers could maybe get them to do an interview and share stories. Maybe this would even get some folks usually not interested in the magazine to have a look at it, too.

    I'm pretty sure there would even be volunteers to help get the yearly magazine together and ready if needed.
    1998 Viper GTS | 2017 Shelby GT350

  24. #124
    Enthusiast Voice of Reason's Avatar
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    A yearly printed magazine makes the most sense to me. With no new Viper on the horizon there’s no need for timely information to get out to members and sponsors have less incentive to pay for ads because there’s nothing new to talk about. And it only makes sense if the cost is 1/3 or less than what it’s costing now.

  25. #125
    Enthusiast Canadian venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    There are 3 accountants within the club plus the VOA Treasurer involved. By having that many pretty much covers off the intent of an independent audit in my mind.

    As far as membership goes, the VOA has a very small percentage of owners as members, and have tremendous growth opportunities. We've attracted them to the forum as "enthusiasts" in droves but not provided the value proposition necessary to encourage them to be members. Are the regions failing to offer what the owners are looking for? In many cases that's probably true. What can regions do to improve their appeal...many, many things!

    What can VOA national do? Lots. Magazine costs have to be dramatically cut, and if that isn't possible put it on hiatus or eliminate it altogether. Other costs need to be reduced. Other revenue streams need to be utilized so national can operate with a lot less of the membership revenue. Run lean and mean. And regions need to have the funding to do the really heavy lifting that only they can do at the local level, from an appropriate share of dues and other sources of revenue like sponsorships.

    VOA and the presidents are wrestling with all of this. Change is difficult. The nature tendency is to keep on doing the same thing. But we're discovering the old ways stopped some time ago, the audit will hopefully make that absolutely crystal clear to all, and necessity will prevail in the end.
    Bruce imo the audit is a joke by being conduct by the ones who put the club in this mess. They now have a magic wand and will find what went on? What they didnt saw coming all these years? The VOA treasurer isnt a cpa? Was he sleeping all these years? By doing the audit themselves, i think its only to protect their ego....
    As for the magazine, did we go into submissions over the years? Do Maurice get paid for this and if so, how much and does it worth it? Do we need an award winning magazine? Who benefits from this award ? The club? I dont think so....
    P.A.Savignac
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