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  1. #301
    Enthusiast Fatboy 18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loud View Post
    That or selfish and greedy, lol.
    Haha, Well if national had been a bit more open and perhaps the treasurer should have shouted out warnings to them or us a little earlier, folks would be a bit happier!

    Personally I found it nuts that the club was not capable of looking after itself on just membership revenue, if it couldn't do that then something was broken from the very start! They stated for the club to operate it needed money from Sponsors for advertising etc. Any advertising and sponsorship monies should be a bonus to running a Club, you should not be relying on it to make or break a club. Wonder how sponsors feel when they are sold a deal to advertise in 4 quarterly issues of a magazine per year then the plug is pulled down to 2 issues, then in 2022 going to 2 online issues? I guess they would be wanting a refund? I would not be happy!

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboy 18 View Post
    Haha, Well if national had been a bit more open and perhaps the treasurer should have shouted out warnings to them or us a little earlier, folks would be a bit happier!

    Personally I found it nuts that the club was not capable of looking after itself on just membership revenue, if it couldn't do that then something was broken from the very start! They stated for the club to operate it needed money from Sponsors for advertising etc. Any advertising and sponsorship monies should be a bonus to running a Club, you should not be relying on it to make or break a club. Wonder how sponsors feel when they are sold a deal to advertise in 4 quarterly issues of a magazine per year then the plug is pulled down to 2 issues, then in 2022 going to 2 online issues? I guess they would be wanting a refund? I would not be happy!
    They'll lose sponsors.
    Then they'll lose more money.
    Their answer will be to raise dues to $500/year.
    They'll lose more members.
    They'll lose all sponsors.
    They'll raise dues to $1000/year.
    They'll lose everyone.

  3. #303
    Supporting Vendor JonB ~ PartsRack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01sapphirebob View Post
    As I understand it, the club has only used about $40k of the $175k loan. So we have have about $135k left over. If we dont use any of the rest of it we give it back and would then only be on the hook for what we spent of it.
    Nobody has mentioned the fact that over on FB, Maurice is touting sneak-peeks of his grand double issue!

    HE AND HIS PRINTERS and MAILERS HAVE TO GET PAID. From what? Apparently the Printer has not billed VOA for a large part of 2021?

    I suspect the SBA loan funds will pay the undisclosed amounts to
    you-know-who for the back-ordered award-winning Magazines. [ps Designer Debbie B won those self-nominated awards back in 2015.]

    Fin-Com should CANCEL printing of remaining 2021 Mags to make a good-faith attempt to save the treasury. Explain it to members and subscribers and sponsors in an email. Beg for understanding and forgiveness.

    The 2 FOUNDERS have been promising transparency as a platform since 9/13........... time to practice some.
    Last edited by JonB ~ PartsRack; 11-16-2021 at 01:41 PM.
    Jon "JonB" Brobst ~~~~:<~ JonB@PartsRack.com


  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB ~ PartsRack View Post
    Nobody has mentioned the fact that over on FB, Maurice is touting sneak-peeks of his grand double issue!

    HE AND HIS PRINTERS and MAILERS HAVE TO GET PAID. From what? Apparently the Printer has not billed VOA for a large part of 2021?

    I suspect the SBA loan funds will pay the undisclosed amounts to
    you-know-who for the back-ordered award-winning Magazines. [ps Designer Debbie B won those self-nominated awards back in 2015.]

    Fin-Com should CANCEL printing of remaining 2021 Mags to make a good-faith attempt to save the treasury. Explain it to members and subscribers and sponsors in an email. Beg for understanding and forgiveness.

    The 2 FOUNDERS have been promising transparency as a platform since 9/13........... time to practice some.
    But but but but but...now we're the ones profiting from it...

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by 13COBRA View Post
    I'm starting to realize why Maurice hasn't jumped in.
    You will only hear from him on this forum when he is selling something....like when his book was made available.

  6. #306
    Enthusiast Fatboy 18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by commandomatt View Post
    You will only hear from him on this forum when he is selling something....like when his book was made available.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by commandomatt View Post
    You will only hear from him on this forum when he is selling something....like when his book was made available.
    No kidding. That's wrong.

  8. #308
    Enthusiast Mopar'er no car's Avatar
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    Of the 40k that was spent from the 175k loan, was it mentioned as to what it went towards?
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  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Mopar'er no car View Post
    Of the 40k that was spent from the 175k loan, was it mentioned as to what it went towards?
    I will let you figure it out.
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  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by commandomatt View Post
    You will only hear from him on this forum when he is selling something....like when his book was made available.
    Charter Member ,

  11. #311
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    The problem is, the longer this goes on (silence), the more members they will lose.
    96 GTS (# 33, Bone Stock), 66 Mustang Convertible, 66 Mustang Hardtop, 69 Corvette Roadster

  12. #312
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    This is going to be such a shit show.

    Obviously the magazine is a parasitic drain. It needs to be gone.

    I am curious now what the $20,964 expense in October paid to Beth was?

    Also, if the magazine gets to stay, can I put in my resume to edit and publish it? I'd be more than happy to give a bid. Surely I can feasibly do it for at least $1 less than what National is paying now

  13. #313
    Enthusiast Mopar'er no car's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 13COBRA View Post
    This is going to be such a shit show.

    Obviously the magazine is a parasitic drain. It needs to be gone.

    I am curious now what the $20,964 expense in October paid to Beth was?

    Also, if the magazine gets to stay, can I put in my resume to edit and publish it? I'd be more than happy to give a bid. Surely I can feasibly do it for at least $1 less than what National is paying now
    The 20k to Beth was $$ she had to kick in just to make NVE work.
    Then, we take out a 175k loan so she can get her $$ back and convientely walk away from this dumpster fire?

    BTW, did anyone else notice National elections have already taken place? Nothing in form of an email to the members?
    Last edited by Mopar'er no car; 11-16-2021 at 04:53 PM.
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  14. #314
    Enthusiast CarolinaViper's Avatar
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    I don't believe we need an extensive audit that goes over 17,000 line items per year unless we believe there is some criminal activity going on. No one is stating that, all we need is some honest answers to some tough questions. Those questions mainly stem from two concerns The Quarterly Magazine and NVE expendatures. I can't figure out how to attached the P&L for NVE-4, that Beth sent me or I would. It showed a profit of $24,103.83, but in actuality it was a loss of that amount. What really caught my attention was the total expenditures of $72,151.98 for track events. It was broken down as: Speedway track rental: $38,520.00, Autocross cost: $15,200.00 and $18,431.98 for catering of food at the track.

    Again, don't think we need to spend thousands of dollars on an audit. Just answer some question.

    Found out from a post on Face Book, Maurice mentioned that the printers of the magazine were also VOA members. So were Beth and Joe being transparent when they said $40K were given to contractors to print the magazine Were they actually VOA members at the time.



    I emailed (see below) Beth and Joe several questions. As a lot of you are not getting the information please read my questions, their answers and lack of answers and then my reply to their responses, which todate I have not received any replies.



    Jeff Barnes <voa.carolinas.jeffbarnes@gmail.com>
    Tue, Nov 2, 2:01 PM
    to joe.boscia, beth.sewell

    Beth & Joe,



    Black text is my original questions, red text is your reply, and blue text is my response to your answers. Thanks for the quick reply and I would appreciate this email made available to the "Audit" team.



    1. Would like to see what was submitted to the bank that processed the SBA loan to include a Balance sheet and a Profit and Loss Statement. I'm surprised we were approved.



    It is a disaster loan it is not meant for businesses with profit. It is meant for businesses who were affected negatively by covid.

    Yes, agree and how was the club negatively affected by covid

    I personally signed I am very successful
    No doubt. Did you use the revenue received from members for NVE4 in one CY and then the actual expenses for NVE$ in the following CY to qualify for the loan. Did the club have to put anything up as collateral as the loan was over the non-collateral limit. Noticed that you kept it under $200K so no one had to guarantee the loan

    2. Breakdown (detailed gathering/designing/assembling/printing/mailing/) of the cost of the quarterly Magazine and who gets what
    Editor gets a flat rate of $5000/ issue

    $20K per year

    Layout designer gets a flat rate of $5000/issue
    $20K per year

    Roles were combined under Maurice in early 2020 after he let his associate go (name edited by me Jeff Barnes) go due to her lack of responsiveness and inability to meet deadlines
    Even with the $40K in the 1099s mentioned below - is far from the $140-$150K stated on the IRS FM 900s

    Also you did not break out the printing and mailing cost?


    3. Cost breakdown of the NVE4 (Mainly the cost related to all tracking events - and who got paid)

    Attached
    The P&L showed a Profit of $24,103.83. Should actually be a loss. Primarily due to the $72K expense for track events

    4. How many members actually tracked their Vipers opposed to those that didn't and funded those that did

    That data was not tracked at Homestead so we can’t answer this question

    Should be easy to find out if the club collected all the waivers at the track...these should be kept on file for a little while.


    5. Membership decline or increase since 2018
    Beth Will send.
    Beth's Response
    2013......1188
    2014......1960
    2015......1958
    2016......2019
    2017......1921
    2018......1720
    2019......1630
    2020......1586
    2021......1758



    A decrease occurred as I assumed as annotated by the IRS FM 900s (and yes I can read them)

    6. How many 1099s were given out and what FOR and total reimbursement expense the club paid out, plus salaries by position.
    2020
    - Had 2 1099s given to the magazine contractors $20,000 Each Are they club members?


    Add this $40K and the cost to the editor & layout ($40K) is only $80K What happen to the other $60K-$70K that was reported on the IRS FM 900s


    How did the club pay VOA members who obtained advertising for the club magazine.

    How much did the club pay out for this advertising toclub members, as the IRS FM 900 shows a sharp decline in advertising income but still showed large increase in over all cost for the magazine. (Yes, again I can read the IRS 900s)




    There were no reimbursement expenses paid by the club

    - The club has no employees therefore there were no salaries
    -

    7. Profit & Loss of the Club's Viper Store, to include purchases and sales for the last five years
    That info can be presented via the P&L for 2015 through 2020

    8. Estimated Budgeted cost to produce the quarterly magazine for an on-line basis and the cost to print them for the Mamba members. Surely we have one done.

    Editing and layout remains unchanged
    So when I asked the question on the forum how much a digital copy of the quarterly magazine the answer would be $40K to the editor & layout cost and a 12 month fee of $35.00 for a total of $40,420.
    Website delivery is $35 per month

    9. Balance Sheet and Income Statement since 2014. If we were not required to do one...SHOULD make it a requirement in the future, it’s a great tool to have on hand.
    Information will be presented for the entire 7 years once the audit is complete.


    Balance Sheets and Income Statements are generated out of Quickbooks on a regular basis
    You would think someone at National would review these very informative documents and would have caught this a whole lot sooner.
    10. A Year-by-year comparison sheet (Maybe a IRS Schedule E) that includes all revenues and expenses broken down since 2014. Again, if we don't do one great idea if we did, as then the BOD could see the broader breakdown in the club's finances to avert the financial situation we are in.
    We file a 990 Form with the IRS
    We are Non-profit
    Sch E is meant for Real Estate transactions and only reported on Individual Returns Form 1040.

    As you should know it's not only for real estate transactions, but for "S" corps, Trust and many other reasons. The info compiled would give everyone a three, four, five comparison of the club's major revenue makers and the major expenses. Nice to have, yes you may have to make one.
    Do you know how to read the 990 forms?

    Yes I can, as you can see how I extrapolated the decrease in membership, decrease in ad and website revenues. Apparently, the national officers whose names are listed on the IRS fm 900 can not as they did not notice this info. Nor did they notice the error in the 2018 revenues listed for membership dues.











    Jeff M. Barnes

  15. #315
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    That's good comedy Jeff!

    I see Beth/Joe called it an audit even though others said this was not an audit.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by COI View Post
    That's good comedy Jeff!

    I see Beth/Joe called it an audit even though others said this was not an audit.
    This is the most auditing non-audit I've ever seen.

  17. #317
    Question: is there a contractual relationship between the club and Maurice? What are the terms? If not why doesn’t someone get some stones and shut this down? Maybe I’m assuming too much but it is shocking, not to mention incredibly stupid that we are back to owners/enthusiasts making their living off a car club.
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  18. #318
    It is my recollection that when the VOA was formed it was stated that it needed 1800 members to be economically viable. Note the statistics for membership for 2018, 2019 and 2020. 1720, 1630 and 1586, respectively. And for this year, 1758. When the membership dropped below 1800 in 2018, that should have been a giant red flag that the club’s finances needed to be readjusted. A sensible reading of the data would’ve shown that continuing the magazine as it was in the past was inappropriate and imprudent; and, that continuing the NVEs, at least in the same scope and at the same frequency was also imprudent. And that is the case even if Covid did not hit. Why? Because the membership problem started in 2018. The problem was clearly foreseeable since 2017 was the last year of the Viper. The club never pivoted to transform itself into a post production car club. From what I read on this forum, it still is not doing that. The glory days are over. As time goes by, this club will evolve into an antique car club. That’s just reality and it’s time to recognize that reality and put egos aside. People that cannot get their minds around this reality should not be in VOA leadership. They will just continue to throw good money after bad to preserve something that no longer exists.
    Last edited by Unlimtd; 11-16-2021 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Correctio

  19. #319
    Enthusiast Steve M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mopar'er no car View Post
    Of the 40k that was spent from the 175k loan, was it mentioned as to what it went towards?
    Am I missing something, or did they already blow through the $175k loan and then another $20k on top of that?
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  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M View Post
    Am I missing something, or did they already blow through the $175k loan and then another $20k on top of that?
    Negative, only about $40k of the $175K has been spent.
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  21. #321
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    Thursday February 11, 2016 is an interesting date. Sounds like many of you were around then. I hadn't even considered buying a Viper yet. Surprised many don't know how much items in question, like the VQ, cost for the first couple of years and who may have been ok with the change a couple years in.

    If it is cryptic, it is meant to be.

    A lot of stones are being thrown by people who lived the history for which you are asking questions about. The statement is not meant to suggest the questions are not valid - they are. However, when a question is asked concerning the history of the club and the questioner was a member of the club and/or an active member of the club and/or very involved maybe to the point of the decisions made, then maybe ask the question a different way. Like when did the expenses for VQ start to rise because I don't remember these issues in 2014? This type of question demonstrates situational awareness. It lets others know your level of involvement. That involvement could be a fun free wheeling member just driving your viper to engaged in your region to regional officer to national officer. Were you an original founding member? If so, then share with us why everyone at that point thought a magazine was important. Also, share with us when you thought the magazine was no longer a viable product before July 1st, 2021 and what you did about it. Dig up your emails from 2014 thru 2020 where you expressed your concerns to your regional president or one of the four national presidents. Share your emails where you were concerned about the finances and lack of transparency, the lack of BoD meetings, the lack of budgets, the lack of minutes, the lack of (fill in the blank).

    I have talked with many many people who were involved with the previous club as members or officers. I have talked with many who made the journey from that club to the VOA. I have talked with numerous who did not. There has only been one person who continually shared his/her concerns. One. And that person has and will always have my deepest respect. That person expressed those concerns in the fall of 2019. I was sitting in the car when the call came in - knowing who it was, I took it. It should not have taken a non member to see what so many members missed. Hell, I missed it even when I was told because other things were more pressing like starting a region, creating events, organizing Greenbriar for Roy and then Amelia.

    So, once again, every question is valid. Every question needs to be asked. Every question need to be answered.

    Just know when you ask a question or make a statement, people will start to look at your join date. That is the date responsibility for today's answers started, not today or the last month.

    For you new guys in the last couple years, ask the old guys what it was like in the years since they joined the VOA. Ask yourself why a guy who joined in 2018 is taking ownership to help clean up a mess he wasn't around for when decisions early on created the mess. Be curious about who, when, why, decisions were made and how long it took to manifest?

    How many of you hate that guy who second guesses every decision when something doesn't go right at work? Are you picturing him.

    Keep asking questions and keep demanding answers
    Brian
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  22. #322
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    Betting that caller was from the 360 area code Viperenvy. Had many of those discussions with him over time if that is the person. Note my join dates were at the initiation both of VCA and VOA, so yes I have seen much of it.

    Calls for transparency are few and far between when things are going smoothly. Doesn't mean people don't notice the lack of transparency but at the time it is not affecting them. That said many of the questions regarding the magazine were asked during the latter VCA years as well. And the lack of answers was about the same. And yes both seem to have included member paid positions and unclear revenue streams that were/are kept outside of club financials.

    Another question that couldn't be asked due to lack of transparency is why did the VOA change from accrual to cash basis. A critical error that hid flaws, especially for those who did not know of the change. And why is advertising revenue (magazine and website) decreasing so much, so fast. There must be a clear reason for it especially given that advertising is still present within each entity.

  23. #323
    It is not unusual for a forum’s advertising revenue to decrease once a car is out of production. For many with deep pockets who bought the GEN five, which was considerably more expensive than any other generation, the Viper has became old news and old tech and they moved on or have placed far less emphasis on modding anything with respect to any Viper they still have. For other examples, look at the supercharged V-8 Ford Lightning F150 forum. You’re probably going to see that phenomenon with respect to the jeep SRT eight and track hawk Forums also since, at least so far, there’s been no announcement of Stellantis continuing either variant of the grand Cherokee for 2022. It’s just a natural evolution or devolvement, depending on your viewpoint, of a car club when the OEM stops making the vehicle. There can still be a viable club but it has to re-cast to meet different and changing needs.
    Last edited by Unlimtd; 11-16-2021 at 08:50 PM. Reason: Correction

  24. #324
    Enthusiast Fatboy 18's Avatar
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    Well here's some things I have found out from that last presentation and Zoom meeting!
    The club was not set up to run on membership fees alone! WOW That I never knew.

    As for History, Barry Adams (at the time I think was the UK Vice Prez), was in the USA at a Viper Owners Invitational event where they held an AGM Lee stubbfield, Chris Marshal and other officers were there. He saw what went on and the Police were called to calm things down because they thought there would be a lynching party! other regions walked away from the VCA and Maurice Lang with others decided to set up a new club calling themselves the VOA, the UK and other regions were encouraged to leave the old and go with the new as it was deemed the old was unfixable, some at VCA thought different.
    What it came down to was "Trust" plane and simple! Day 1 when membership opened within the first minute myself and others joined up, the phone lines were blocked and some membership numbers had to be juggled around as to who called at what time. I ended up with a membership number of 140 and for the first few years also paid mamba membership to boost the new club. Mr lang had been producing the VCA magazine and so to carry on with a now new VOA magazine seemed no different.
    A fresh Board was put in place and we pad membership. So far all good, or so it seemed on the surface. I believe printing and publishing was moved from one company to another because Maurice Lang was not happy about print quality and wanted a printer local to him in California to take over, (this is stuff I have learned these past weeks). I also believe (but have yet to see a true breakdown) that the Printing costs have escalated more than they did with the original printer? We are still waiting on that.

    You also have to remember that back in 2013 Dodge was still involved sponsoring the club. Then of course, production stopped and Dodge walked away. Now, having learnt (as I said earlier) that the club was set up to not run on membership fees alone, Dodge pulling out has affected revenue. But hey, the club was supposed to be open and honest and we trusted that National officers and treasurers would be taking care of business. No all of us are accountants and good with cash so at some stage you put trust in the board. Just like you trust the Democrat's to do the right thing. (That's a Joke by the way).

    So yes I have been around Vipers and Involved with both clubs since 2001 Just didn't expect to have to go through all this crap again, but stepping back and looking into the goldfish bowl, the costing's killing the club is pointing to the magazine and all this time we have been questioning for a breakdown of the true costs.
    I was also not aware that different accounting methods had been used in some years to add to the confusion.

    Perhaps a better way to explain how some of us stand would be like this. Some people own cars but do not know how to fix them so they take them to garages. (that's like some of us not knowing much about accounts and trusting the board to spend members money wisely). I don't know all the answers, but members and officers are asking questions, there is Zero wrong with that!

  25. #325
    Enthusiast Fatboy 18's Avatar
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    Goodnight, way, way past my bedtime!


 
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