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  1. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fangs3 View Post
    Bruce,
    I support so much of what you have said here and at our meetings. I'm sorry that you won't be joining us on Sunday. You are very knowledgeable and you have a very good insight into the problems, facing our Club. I have to admit, I was surprised at the state of our financials. I hope you will reconsider and join us Sunday. We need your voice!

    Sincerely,
    Cheryl
    Hi Cheryl,

    I posted a thread in the Officers-Private Forum that all presidents should read. Unfair treatment and interference in the running of your own regions may be just as possible as it was in ours.

    There is a person who prevented the rest of the executive and VOA Board from knowing of this impending crisis, has mishandled many aspects of it, shut out and prevented the Board from being a part of managing it, and who has been making the challenges for the 2022 executive much more difficult in numerous ways. I can't believe how many times I warned this person about numerous bad decisions and what the consequences would be...and it's all playing out now.

    This person needs to be removed from the process, transition all authority to the new president, and be prevented from causing further irreparable damage to the club.

    https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...is-not-correct
    Last edited by Bruce H.; 11-21-2021 at 12:26 PM.
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  2. #477
    Wesley Frasard
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Wes & Mike (Current VOA/VP)

    Can you let the rank and file VOA members know what is going to discussed or voted on in the next BoD meeting or regional presidents meeting that is scheduled to take place in a week or two. This way, for those members that have questions we can fowarded them to our presidents or for those presidents who are not active maybe you guys can review questions that come up from the forum. If you don't have time to review the questions on the forum, i will compile them for you. Lastly, is a version of the minutes written or recorded going to be made availble for all membership to view.

    Thanks,
    Jeff
    Thanks Jeff, that would be helpful.

    You will see a few new threads added to the Forums in the coming months with their own Title.

    1) VOA Finances - for Member only - Read Only - Monthly Statement with Credits and Debits along with where we sit on the budget month-over-month.
    2) VOA BOD - for Members only - BOD Past discussions (minutes) - next BOD meeting discussion (topics for discussion or information to be presented by committee)- BOD Future Discussions and suggested topics - BOD Decisions (to better track what was agreed to) - need to discuss more about rollcall and voting at the BOD meetings as some feel this should be made a matter of record.
    3) VOA Committee - for Members only - Read Only - each Committee should have a: Charter, Topics for Discussions, Decisions for the BOD - we will try and work in an Open page for members to submit Committee suggestions, just not right away -

    This it currently on the drawing board, The VOA Finances is the number one items to get put on the Forum page to start publishing Monthly Statements and a general ledger of where the club stands.
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  3. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    Hi Cheryl,

    I posted a thread in the Officers-Private Forum that all presidents should read. Unfair treatment and interference in the running of your own regions may be just as possible as it was in ours.

    There is a person who prevented the rest of the executive and VOA Board from knowing of this impending crisis, has mishandled many aspects of it, shut out and prevented the Board from being a part of managing it, and who has been making the challenges for the 2022 executive much more difficult in numerous ways. I can't believe how many times I warned this person about numerous bad decisions and what the consequences would be...and it's all playing out now.

    This person needs to be removed from the process, transition all authority to the new president, and be prevented from causing further irreparable damage to the club.

    https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...is-not-correct
    Bruce is it true that VOA is withholding transfer payments to Ontario region? Bad enough they (or her) want to provide less than what is due, but to just prevent transfer of any of it is just not acceptable.

  4. #479
    Regional President
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperSRT View Post
    Bruce is it true that VOA is withholding transfer payments to Ontario region? Bad enough they (or her) want to provide less than what is due, but to just prevent transfer of any of it is just not acceptable.
    I would like to think that our share of dues have been calculated incorrectly, although Beth claims it to be correct. Simple math says Standard would yield 47.56% and 48.13% for Mamba. You just can't get 32% from that!

    As an example, using the formula Beth herself provided, for 50% of dues, then deducted $2.80 for the extra magazine postage to Canada and insurance adjustment, the amount due for 2021 renewals from Oct 1st to Dec 31 would be $1975.70. We were paid $1332, short $643.70 from that one period alone. We received 32.29% of dues.
    Last edited by Bruce H.; 11-21-2021 at 03:00 PM.
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  5. #480
    Enthusiast CarolinaViper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    Hi Cheryl,

    I posted a thread in the Officers-Private Forum that all presidents should read. Unfair treatment and interference in the running of your own regions may be just as possible as it was in ours.

    There is a person who prevented the rest of the executive and VOA Board from knowing of this impending crisis, has mishandled many aspects of it, shut out and prevented the Board from being a part of managing it, and who has been making the challenges for the 2022 executive much more difficult in numerous ways. I can't believe how many times I warned this person about numerous bad decisions and what the consequences would be...and it's all playing out now.

    This person needs to be removed from the process, transition all authority to the new president, and be prevented from causing further irreparable damage to the club.

    https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...is-not-correct
    Bruce,

    I can only guess, at who this person could be. The current president needs to go ahead and resign, the past presidents, Maurice and Alex need to get out of the running of the club, that is why we have elections every two years. The board on this next meeting needs to take a vote of confidence to keep the current president or asked her to step down.

  6. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Bruce,

    I can only guess, at who this person could be. The current president needs to go ahead and resign, the past presidents, Maurice and Alex need to get out of the running of the club, that is why we have elections every two years. The board on this next meeting needs to take a vote of confidence to keep the current president or asked her to step down.
    You are so right.
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  7. #482
    Enthusiast CarolinaViper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    Thanks Jeff, that would be helpful.

    You will see a few new threads added to the Forums in the coming months with their own Title.

    1) VOA Finances - for Member only - Read Only - Monthly Statement with Credits and Debits along with where we sit on the budget month-over-month.
    2) VOA BOD - for Members only - BOD Past discussions (minutes) - next BOD meeting discussion (topics for discussion or information to be presented by committee)- BOD Future Discussions and suggested topics - BOD Decisions (to better track what was agreed to) - need to discuss more about rollcall and voting at the BOD meetings as some feel this should be made a matter of record.
    3) VOA Committee - for Members only - Read Only - each Committee should have a: Charter, Topics for Discussions, Decisions for the BOD - we will try and work in an Open page for members to submit Committee suggestions, just not right away -

    This it currently on the drawing board, The VOA Finances is the number one items to get put on the Forum page to start publishing Monthly Statements and a general ledger of where the club stands.
    Wes,

    I am going to quit being a pain in your side, as I have decided not to renew my membership with the club for various reasons, but mainly for these three reasons.

    1. Non-payment of region dues to the Ontorio.
    2. No explaination of how we qualified for the Covid loan of $175K
    3. Lack of explaining why we changed our accounting system and who approved the change.

    But I will leave you with some advice since I'm not going to be on any committes. This is what I would have suggested for the NVE committee and the store. Best of luck to you and Mike, hope you can change the old culture of the club. I will check around in a year or two and see how well you guys did.


    At NVE’s have a pay-in system separate from the VOA’s banking system if you are not doing this already. Set up something like a PayPal account (not them as their fees are 4% or more), but something similar that is event driven only. No cross flow of money into that account if it doesn’t have a connection to NVE. That way you will have an instant up to date balance,

    Open a checking account w/debit card for each NVE, again to keep all other cash flows out. That way it’s easy to see what has been paid and to whom. I know you were saying there were a lot of line items to go over to find out the actual expense. This will make it a whole lot easier to find the actual P & L for the event and you not have to add figures up four times to get a figure like you said you had to for NVE4.

    Have a two-tier pay stem for NVEs those that want to track their Vipers and one the will not track. Most track events cost $300-$500 or more. If 100 want to track their Viper, say add a non-refundable $300.00 to their cost. That’s a quick $30k on reducing the cost of the NVEs

    Have food trucks cater the lunch meals at the track events. NVE4 catering cost were $15K. You can have to hotel or track event assist in obtaining different food trucks offering different local cuisine. I was told that approximately 100 tracked their Vipers at NVE4…averages out to $150.00 per person. I bet there was a lot of wasted food that we paid for. Each member tracking their Viper can pay for their own lunch. Less food waste and package material. Will make those environmentalist tree huggers happy.
    With just the bottom two you can save $45K in cost at the next NVE.

    For the store, if you guys decide to operate it within the VOA, make your profit margins 25 percent or higher. All returns, be paid by the purchaser unless there was an error by the VOA store. Members will understand the reason for the higher profit margins if you explain it is to help keep membership dues lower. As you stated, the margins are very slim and the store would lose 9 percent on their profit on returns items when they completed a second purchase, which you said would wipe out the profit margins.


    Like NVE events keep revenue deposits different from the main VOA account. If you ever have to accomplish an audit of the store it will be a whole lot easier.
    Last edited by CarolinaViper; 11-21-2021 at 04:44 PM.

  8. #483
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    Regarding the store comment I have wondered what line item covers the new member referral coupon costs ($25 per new referral). I witnessed many coupons being used at NVE4 but yet no line item for that in the finances. Hopefully they did not reduce the store profits or reduce monies provided to the regions. Note this is also another policy to cancel. Paying these coupons to regional membership directors is effectively a pay for volunteer function.

  9. #484
    Regional President
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Wes,

    I am going to quit being a pain in your side, as I have decided not to renew my membership with the club for various reasons, but mainly for these three reasons.

    1. Non-payment of region dues to the Ontorio.
    2. No explaination of how we qualified for the Covid loan of $175K
    3. Lack of explaining why we changed our accounting system and who approved the change.
    Jeff, the reality is that the executive is limited in what they can say and do right now. Most other Board presidents fear reprisals, and my honesty, clear identification of problems, and decisive recommendations have made me a target of those who feel threatened. I expect there will be changes within the Board that will improve its ability to function better, and if and when it does I may be able to step up again. Sometimes you just have to rip the band-aid off, and that can speed healing.

    You obviously have a tremendous amount to offer, and do it in a no BS manner also. I hope there will be an opportunity for us both to contribute at some point.

    Cheers
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  10. #485
    Wesley Frasard
    VOA National Vice President
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Wes,

    I am going to quit being a pain in your side, as I have decided not to renew my membership with the club for various reasons, but mainly for these three reasons.

    1. Non-payment of region dues to the Ontorio.
    2. No explaination of how we qualified for the Covid loan of $175K
    3. Lack of explaining why we changed our accounting system and who approved the change.

    But I will leave you with some advice since I'm not going to be on any committes. This is what I would have suggested for the NVE committee and the store. Best of luck to you and Mike, hope you can change the old culture of the club. I will check around in a year or two and see how well you guys did.

    At NVE’s have a pay-in system separate from the VOA’s banking system if you are not doing this already. Set up something like a PayPal account (not them as their fees are 4% or more), but something similar that is event driven only. No cross flow of money into that account if it doesn’t have a connection to NVE. That way you will have an instant up to date balance,

    Open a checking account w/debit card for each NVE, again to keep all other cash flows out. That way it’s easy to see what has been paid and to whom. I know you were saying there were a lot of line items to go over to find out the actual expense. This will make it a whole lot easier to find the actual P & L for the event and you not have to add figures up four times to get a figure like you said you had to for NVE4.

    Have a two-tier pay stem for NVEs those that want to track their Vipers and one the will not track. Most track events cost $300-$500 or more. If 100 want to track their Viper, say add a non-refundable $300.00 to their cost. That’s a quick $30k on reducing the cost of the NVEs

    Have food trucks cater the lunch meals at the track events. NVE4 catering cost were $15K. You can have to hotel or track event assist in obtaining different food trucks offering different local cuisine. I was told that approximately 100 tracked their Vipers at NVE4…averages out to $150.00 per person. I bet there was a lot of wasted food that we paid for. Each member tracking their Viper can pay for their own lunch. Less food waste and package material. Will make those environmentalist tree huggers happy.
    With just the bottom two you can save $45K in cost at the next NVE.

    For the store, if you guys decide to operate it within the VOA, make your profit margins 25 percent or higher. All returns, be paid by the purchaser unless there was an error by the VOA store. Members will understand the reason for the higher profit margins if you explain it is to help keep membership dues lower. As you stated, the margins are very slim and the store would lose 9 percent on their profit on returns items when they completed a second purchase, which you said would wipe out the profit margins.

    Like NVE events keep revenue deposits different from the main VOA account. If you ever have to accomplish an audit of the store it will be a whole lot easier.


    Jeff,

    Even if you do not rejoin this year, I still would want a hard critique on things that we are thinking about when it comes to ideas on the table to get the membership wants and wishes within the operating budget.

    To address a few of your specific questions more directly:

    1) Ontario (along with all the internationals) had an agreement with the VOA that was worked out a while back (early years of the VOA). I have not seen what those e-mails yet, so I cannot quote what exactly is in there but in discussions this evening with the people who drafted that agreement the cost share was reduced because the VQM magazine could only be shipped to international members through International 1st Class Mail - very expensive. The agreement was that the insurance offset from what US members get plus the cost of shipping fees for 1st Class international mail to the international members would be split 50/50 with VOA. The agreement said that shipping costs would come out of the 50/50 international regional split for what the internationals received to cover their 50% international shipping cost share for the VQM. Those documents seemed to have been not provided to the current international presidents when they turned over, multiple times now, with their predecessors. We should be getting those e-mails shortly and I believe they will be shared with the regional presidents, from my understanding. However, International membership will have its own committee so that we can get consensus and then put this into writing within by-laws where it may need to go. If the magazine is an e-magazine then I cannot see why the internationals should not return back to a 50/50 cost share. Again, right now, everything is on the table and open for discussion and work to be drafted by a committee for a vote by the BOD.

    2) The COVID $175K loan - we qualified for $500K under a SBA + EIDL Grant under clubs based on the tax documents summited and information provided - treasurer has his name and the VOA name on the loan. We have a 2.75% loan for 30 years with repayment to start in 2025, 2 year reprieve. We currently have $144K in the account but billings from Wilson and VMQ tie up the remaining funds. We used part of the loan to pay the remaining 2021 regional split shares for the rest of the year and the 2022 Insurance Policy. Now, to start the story here you have to initially assume you were under the accrual method of accounting. Now you will hear this loan was to cover losses from NVE, which is part of the answer but not the full answer. Again, membership was never designed to cover all the bills - fact. NVE profits (about $40K) were one of the items needed to cover those things that membership fees did not fully cover, as history had told us it would. Lots of moving parts and cash accounting masked the liabilities up until all the billings started to come in, early summer 2021 and NVE cash on the books started liquidating. After delayed NVE was over, the delayed VMQ went to print, and the delayed Wilson billings came in along with the 2022 Philadelphia Insurance billing hit the books we saw the deficit balloon form about -$70K in July to -$195K today in a very short time period. My assumption is that - assumed accrual method being used when cash accounting was actually in place initially distracted the team from what was really going on with the finances. That had the accrual method had been used it would have showed the team the financial issues much sooner.

    3) The accrual to cash basis change happened with the change in Treasurer back in 2018. The new treasurer deals with a lot of accounts with his business that uses the cash basis method. He opted for a system he knows best. Since nobody asked questions or challenged him after the first year's financial reports he just continued to use the cash basis for accounting. It was a personal decision without notification. We are pretty much going to use the accrual method and it will be another issue to be addressed in the by-laws along with a requirement to provide a balanced budget proposal to BOD in February each year and monthly statements providing the current status of funds each month to the BOD and to the membership.

    The rest of the information:

    NVE is being looked by a Committee very differently than in the past. Mike is talking and coordinating the current NVE-5 to try and figure out how it can be a self-supporting event that will not drain from membership dues to continue with planning efforts - more to follow. Also, new accounts to transfer money into is the way to insulates and isolates the funds from the rest of the VOA budget as to not provide a false impression for where we sit financially. I initially thought its own everything but I do not want to pay another service fee on CC services used. However, we do need to look at cheaper alternatives then a CC that charges us 3.74% transaction fee. Paypal is about 2% and we are looking into things like Venmo.

    Once we get into the Committee structure in place we will be able to share better plans for:
    1) VMQ - All options need to be looked at. And e-magazine platform under review is under $50/month to publish the magazine but we need to still work out the Editing and Design costs.
    2) NVE – Single-tier or multi-tier (pick your party) NVE structure needs to be developed by the NVE committee and prices flush out. I know there were several events that I had no plans on attending that were paid for anyway during NVE-4.
    3) VOA Store - This needs a really hard look as it cannot be a drag on cost based on storage fees that are being assessed each month and the handling fee cost every time an item is sold.
    4) National Insurance - Why? We only need to cover the officers and the BOD with D&O insurance unless I am missing something! Again, for a committee to review and report back to the BOD.
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  11. #486
    Regional President
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    To address a few of your specific questions more directly:

    1) Ontario (along with all the internationals) had an agreement with the VOA that was worked out a while back (early years of the VOA). I have not seen what those e-mails yet, so I cannot quote what exactly is in there but in discussions this evening with the people who drafted that agreement the cost share was reduced because the VQM magazine could only be shipped to international members through International 1st Class Mail - very expensive. The agreement was that the insurance offset from what US members get plus the cost of shipping fees for 1st Class international mail to the international members would be split 50/50 with VOA. The agreement said that shipping costs would come out of the 50/50 international regional split for what the internationals received to cover their 50% international shipping cost share for the VQM. Those documents seemed to have been not provided to the current international presidents when they turned over, multiple times now, with their predecessors. We should be getting those e-mails shortly and I believe they will be shared with the regional presidents, from my understanding. However, International membership will have its own committee so that we can get consensus and then put this into writing within by-laws where it may need to go. If the magazine is an e-magazine then I cannot see why the internationals should not return back to a 50/50 cost share. Again, right now, everything is on the table and open for discussion and work to be drafted by a committee for a vote by the BOD.
    You have got to be kidding me! Beth pulled another one over all executive and region presidents again! A Zoom recording is going out to all, minutes of this meeting will be produced, and this will be the official record of the meeting where Beth tried to

    1. Defend her unprecedented effort to undermine an elected regional president and his board of directors and past presidents when they provided their membership the facts so they could make an informed renewal decision. This is the record where she would demonstrate that a VOA Board of Director had lied and misled his region! Did she provide my email to members or just hers?

    2. Defend herself against my insistence that Ontario had in fact not been paid the agreed amount of dues. She did this without producing the formula that Maurice created and without a reconciliation that we had been paid correctly.

    Wes, Beth has never even checked whether we were paid correctly, nor has anyone. Since the July 7th Board meeting I have never seen her let the facts get in the way of her story, and anything she says she will show the presidents to support her story in the next meeting will not happen. You'll wait weeks to see what she could have last evening and here it is below, in its entirety, not altered. Had she done that, rather than claiming we're all mistaken in Ontario, then somebody might have asked to see support for her claim that we had been paid according to that agreement.

    Beth continues to manipulate her executive and the VOA Board of Directors, assisted by the VOA's past presidents, and you will never be free of it. Even after Dec 31, 2021, Beth will still run interference as another past president, with another conflict of interest, and the VOA will never be free of those who have presided over the crippling of the VOA over a period of years.

    I've given Beth and the VOA BOD every opportunity to show leadership, and with the exception of a few sharp region presidents who have stood up to voice their outrage, I have seen nothing but dismal failure. You're new to the executive, and the jury is still out, but if you want to have a shot at a solution, you and the executive are going to need to take extraordinary steps to get rid of the ball and chain.

    "beth.sewell@driveviper.com
    To:
    'Bruce Hadfield'
    ,
    jpmalatesta@gmail.com
    Cc:
    mike.kuchavik@driveviper.com
    ,
    'Ed Massena'
    ,
    joe.boscia@driveviper.com

    Mon., Oct. 25 at 6:08 p.m.

    Good evening Bruce and John,

    I have done more research into the questions regarding international region dues sharing and I was mistaken when I thought Alex implemented it in 2016. That was simply based on a document he sent to me. After speaking with him further, the structure was put in place just prior to the VOA’s launch in 2014. Maurice spent a lot of time negotiating with all international region presidents in late 2013 and below is the exact verbiage from his email dated 11/13/2013 sent to all international presidents:

    Thanks to those of you who sent us suggestions/alternatives. Here's a revised proposal.

    1) We charge international members the same amount as US.

    2) We credit back the liability insurance cost and US postage costs.

    3) We add the added postage costs for international.

    4) We share the additional cost of postage with the region. We take half the net additional amount from your region portion and we'll cover the other half. This makes it simple.

    5) If your region feels it necessary to charge an additional amount, you can do that separately.

    This keeps it consistent for everyone.

    For Europe and Asia:

    Postage cost/member: $44/year

    Credit liability insurance: -$8

    Credit US postage (85 cents x 4): -$3.40

    Total additional amount: $32.60

    Split in half: $16.40

    Half comes from region stipend: $57.50-$16.40= $41.10 (Amount region receives per member)

    We pay the other $16.40.

    For Canada:

    Postage cost/member: $17

    Credit liability insurance: - $8

    Credit US postage: -$3.40

    Total additional amount: $5.60

    Half: $2.80

    Amount region receives per member: $57.50-2.80= $54.70".


    Bruce
    Last edited by Bruce H.; 11-22-2021 at 08:23 AM.
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  12. #487
    Regional President
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    Wes, this is the reconciliation of just one quarter that shows the formula was not followed. Simple math.
    I posted this in the Officers-Private Forum yesterday. https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...227#post450227

    Will you be an advocate to get this corrected? My reconciliation is easy to verify. (Edit, I have provided the support for the number of members who renewed Q4 2020 below), and the VOA remittance cheque to pay us our share of dues. You now have the dues share formula, the number of members dues that were owed, the reconciliation of the amount owed, and the payment cheque that clearly states 2020 Q4 dues...complete proof of my claim that we were not paid correctly. If I am wrong in any way I am owed an explanation.

    Beth has not checked that we were paid correctly, she has not tried to explain where I might have gone wrong, or sought to resolve this in any way. If you choose to look the other way you will have become an enabler of Beth's deceit to the VOA Board, my region's members, and clearly a part of the on-going problem that plagues VOA Leadership. Beth put over 100 VOA membership renewals at risk by not dealing with it, but instead perpetuates the lie.

    Using your formula, this is what's owing for Standard members 47.56% ($115 - 2.80), and for Mamba it would be 48.13% ($75.00-2.80=$72.20), and below is the reconciliation for 2021 renewal from 2020 Q4 as an example of your underpayment, and 32% is nowhere near 47% or 48% of dues.

    Reconciliation of 2021 VOA Dues Sharing
    2020 Q4, Gross X 50% - $2.80 adjustment for postage/insurance
    15 Standard @ $54.70 = $820.50, gross 15 @ 115 = $1725
    16 Mamba @ $72.20 = $1155.20, gross 16 @ $150 = $2400
    2020 Q4 Total owed = $1975.70
    Payment Rec’d Jan 2021 $1332.00 (see copy of cheque attached below)
    Share of dues withheld $643.70
    Ontario’s gross dues $1725 + 2400 = $4125

    Ontario’s share of dues rec’d 1332/4125 = 32.29%

    "VOA Member Dues Share Reconciliation 2021
    Updated Sept 28, 2021"
    MEMBER ID MEMBER LEVEL MEMBER DATE JOIN MEMBER DATE RENEW MEMBER DATE EXPIRE 4th Q 2020
    STD Mamba
    2757 Mamba 2017-01-09 2020-10-01 2021-12-31 1
    288 Mamba 2013-11-18 2020-10-01 2021-12-31 1
    1629 Mamba 2014-04-12 2020-10-27 2021-12-31 1
    960 Mamba 2013-12-21 2020-10-28 2021-12-31 1
    316 Mamba 2013-11-18 2020-10-28 2021-12-31 1
    343 Mamba 2013-11-18 2020-10-29 2021-12-31 1
    2545 Mamba 2016-05-26 2020-11-04 2021-12-31 1
    319 Mamba 2013-11-18 2020-11-16 2021-12-31 1
    351 Mamba 2013-11-18 2020-11-23 2021-12-31 1
    3744 Mamba 2020-09-18 2020-12-07 2021-12-31 1
    893 Mamba 2013-12-17 2020-12-14 2021-12-31 1
    1620 Mamba 2014-04-03 2020-12-23 2021-12-31 1
    550 Mamba 2013-11-19 2020-12-28 2021-12-31 1
    864 Mamba 2013-12-16 2020-12-29 2021-12-31 1
    3806 Mamba 2020-12-07 0000-00-00 2021-12-31 1
    3812 Mamba 2020-12-11 0000-00-00 2021-12-31 1
    3733 Standard 2020-09-07 2020-10-02 2021-12-31 1
    272 Standard 2013-11-18 2020-10-04 2021-12-31 1
    1122 Standard 2013-12-29 2020-10-04 2021-12-31 1
    1258 Standard 2014-01-01 2020-10-05 2021-12-31 1
    356 Standard 2013-11-18 2020-10-15 2021-12-31 1
    3718 Standard 2020-08-15 2020-10-18 2021-12-31 1
    3468 Standard 2019-06-28 2020-10-27 2021-12-31 1
    949 Standard 2013-12-21 2020-10-28 2021-12-31 1
    2871 Standard 2017-05-01 2020-11-21 2021-12-31 1
    1573 Standard 2014-03-04 2020-12-07 2021-12-31 1
    3719 Standard 2020-08-16 2020-12-13 2021-12-31 1
    2432 Standard 2016-01-27 2020-12-15 2021-12-31 1
    541 Standard 2013-11-19 2020-12-20 2021-12-31 1
    3196 Standard 2018-05-25 2020-12-31 2021-12-31 1
    230 Standard 2013-11-18 2020-12-31 2021-12-31 1
    Totals 15 Standard 16 Mamba

    VOA 2020 Dues Payment .jpg

    All of 2021 Q1-Q3 is also incorrect.
    Last edited by Bruce H.; 11-22-2021 at 09:48 AM.
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  13. #488
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    Bruce,

    I understand and just want to answer the questions to what I understand the question to be. If there are e-mails that frame that agreement then we need to see them. If it's a word of mouth agreement then it becomes a very difficult position to support any agreement that was then not enacted without a change to the by-laws by the BOD, no matter what was said. It is either in writing or it is not. If its not in writing (e-mail proof or a resolution drafted between the parties) then it did not occur, in my book, even if it did. And I find it hard to believe that it would be the same for most anyone who is part of the current discussion as well.

    I also want the by-laws followed if any action is to be started or if membership is to be notified beyond what has already been done. I know that I have no appetited to do anything except follow what the by-laws say in this instance, which is notification provided via U.S. Certified Mail to each person within the region before a discussion/decision is allowed to proceed - I will just paraphrase and leave it at that.

    What I want to assure you is that every agreement and line item is on the table for 2022 and 2023. That there will be a discussed and a decision made on each line item, one at a time, for the coming budget. We need to, and it will take time, understand and provide the cost of membership by region. The cost per member needs to be within a few cents of one another and not within many dollars of one another. If a membership pack cost National $8.50 for a U.S. patron but cost $13.50 for an international then an agreement needs to be worked out and brought to the BOD for resolution. For example, the three courses of action that should be presented to the BOD: 1) International picks up the difference out of membership splits of $5/international regional member cost share through higher international regional dues or reduced cost share payback (2022 is a fixed price agreement?? I need a better understanding of what was said at that board meeting that fixed 2022 regional splits at $55), 2) That the International difference be split 50/50 with National and the region (or whatever was determined to be fair between both parties during discussion with the committee) picks up their cost share through higher international regional dues or reduced cost share payback, 3) That the $5/international region member difference be absorbed by National as a cost of doing business. That in all instances this agreement remain in affect for (x) years which will then be subject to re-evaluation. Things change over time so a re-evaluation is necessary to make sure that options remain open and perceived bad decisions do not get locked in and carried forward forever, by either side.

    Even if you choose not to renew, you or your designated representative need to be at the table and be part of the committee that is going to look into this issue and bring the discussion to the BOD for a vote. Discussions and decisions made in a vacuum are never good. You are passionate about the Canadian Regional Club and its membership. I know you want what is best for your members. So, I have to have someone on the team to have your regions position on the committee to help shape that decisions. 2022 is going to be a tough year with some critically needed decisions. We do need to restructure how we do business so that timely decisions can be made with up to date information with a well informed BOD. We cannot have anymore "oh crude" moments again and there should not be anymore finger pointing to place blame.
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  14. #489
    Wesley Frasard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    Wes, this is the reconciliation of just one quarter that shows the formula was not followed. Simple math.
    I posted this in the Officers-Private Forum yesterday. https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...227#post450227

    Will you be an advocate to get this corrected? My reconciliation is easy to verify. (Edit, I have provided the support for the number of members who renewed Q4 2020 below), and the VOA remittance cheque to pay us our share of dues. You now have the dues share formula, the number of members dues that were owed, the reconciliation of the amount owed, and the payment cheque that clearly states 2020 Q4 dues...complete proof of my claim that we were not paid correctly. If I am wrong in any way I am owed an explanation.

    Beth has not checked that we were paid correctly, she has not tried to explain where I might have gone wrong, or sought to resolve this in any way. If you choose to look the other way you will have become an enabler of Beth's deceit to the VOA Board, my region's members, and clearly a part of the on-going problem that plagues VOA Leadership. Beth put over 100 VOA membership renewals at risk by not dealing with it, but instead perpetuates the lie.

    Using your formula, this is what's owing for Standard members 47.56% ($115 - 2.80), and for Mamba it would be 48.13% ($75.00-2.80=$72.20), and below is the reconciliation for 2021 renewal from 2020 Q4 as an example of your underpayment, and 32% is nowhere near 47% or 48% of dues.

    Reconciliation of 2021 VOA Dues Sharing
    2020 Q4, Gross X 50% - $2.80 adjustment for postage/insurance
    15 Standard @ $54.70 = $820.50, gross 15 @ 115 = $1725
    16 Mamba @ $72.20 = $1155.20, gross 16 @ $150 = $2400
    2020 Q4 Total owed = $1975.70
    Payment Rec’d Jan 2021 $1332.00 (see copy of cheque attached below)
    Share of dues withheld $643.70
    Ontario’s gross dues $1725 + 2400 = $4125

    Ontario’s share of dues rec’d 1332/4125 = 32.29%

    "VOA Member Dues Share Reconciliation 2021
    Updated Sept 28, 2021"
    MEMBER ID MEMBER LEVEL MEMBER DATE JOIN MEMBER DATE RENEW MEMBER DATE EXPIRE 4th Q 2020
    STD Mamba
    2757 Mamba 2017-01-09 2020-10-01 2021-12-31 1
    288 Mamba 2013-11-18 2020-10-01 2021-12-31 1
    1629 Mamba 2014-04-12 2020-10-27 2021-12-31 1
    960 Mamba 2013-12-21 2020-10-28 2021-12-31 1
    316 Mamba 2013-11-18 2020-10-28 2021-12-31 1
    343 Mamba 2013-11-18 2020-10-29 2021-12-31 1
    2545 Mamba 2016-05-26 2020-11-04 2021-12-31 1
    319 Mamba 2013-11-18 2020-11-16 2021-12-31 1
    351 Mamba 2013-11-18 2020-11-23 2021-12-31 1
    3744 Mamba 2020-09-18 2020-12-07 2021-12-31 1
    893 Mamba 2013-12-17 2020-12-14 2021-12-31 1
    1620 Mamba 2014-04-03 2020-12-23 2021-12-31 1
    550 Mamba 2013-11-19 2020-12-28 2021-12-31 1
    864 Mamba 2013-12-16 2020-12-29 2021-12-31 1
    3806 Mamba 2020-12-07 0000-00-00 2021-12-31 1
    3812 Mamba 2020-12-11 0000-00-00 2021-12-31 1
    3733 Standard 2020-09-07 2020-10-02 2021-12-31 1
    272 Standard 2013-11-18 2020-10-04 2021-12-31 1
    1122 Standard 2013-12-29 2020-10-04 2021-12-31 1
    1258 Standard 2014-01-01 2020-10-05 2021-12-31 1
    356 Standard 2013-11-18 2020-10-15 2021-12-31 1
    3718 Standard 2020-08-15 2020-10-18 2021-12-31 1
    3468 Standard 2019-06-28 2020-10-27 2021-12-31 1
    949 Standard 2013-12-21 2020-10-28 2021-12-31 1
    2871 Standard 2017-05-01 2020-11-21 2021-12-31 1
    1573 Standard 2014-03-04 2020-12-07 2021-12-31 1
    3719 Standard 2020-08-16 2020-12-13 2021-12-31 1
    2432 Standard 2016-01-27 2020-12-15 2021-12-31 1
    541 Standard 2013-11-19 2020-12-20 2021-12-31 1
    3196 Standard 2018-05-25 2020-12-31 2021-12-31 1
    230 Standard 2013-11-18 2020-12-31 2021-12-31 1
    Totals 15 Standard 16 Mamba

    VOA 2020 Dues Payment .jpg

    All of 2021 Q1-Q3 is also incorrect.
    Bruce, this is very hard to explain and is one of the reasons why we need a fixed price schedule for membership.

    Depending on when your members join depends on how much they paid - this is not a final product - but what we are seeing in the way of dues collected and the pay outs:

    Membership.jpg

    So, if all your members joined in the 1st quarter it is pretty easy math - which it looks like those above are in that 1st quarter. However, if your members joined in the second or third quarter then the fee collect becomes more complicated math when you look at totals for the year - I need to verify the data you provided but I do not have the ability to pull your data as I am not a user with the right privileges. I will try and get the numbers from Joe to see what each membership type was for Ontario by quarter for 2021 and then run the numbers myself to see where the numbers fall out. I know there is also some built in algorithm based on how the portal collects the renewals and outputs some magic number for payment, I need to look at those algorithms for myself with the web-manager.

    2021 in not on the sheet as I did not have the information to fill in, this week I should have those numbers.
    Last edited by viperguy69; 11-22-2021 at 10:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    I also want the by-laws followed if any action is to be started or if membership is to be notified beyond what has already been done. I know that I have no appetited to do anything except follow what the by-laws say in this instance, which is notification provided via U.S. Certified Mail to each person within the region before a discussion/decision is allowed to proceed - I will just paraphrase and leave it at that.
    This is the only place in the bylaws that I found the mail directive. It does not seem to apply in the case you are stating unless the VOA board is attempting to remove the Ontario charter from the VOA. Maybe you read the bylaws differently but the way you are stating it appears to be a big twist of reason.

    Section 6 Suspension or Revocation of Charter
    The National Board may suspend or revoke the charter of any Region. The Board shall give a thirty
    (30) day written notice to each member of the Region setting forth that it is the intention of the
    Board to suspend or revoke the charter of such Region. The notice must be mailed (US Mail without
    any certification or return receipt required) to each member of the Region at the address currently
    shown on the National membership records.
    In the event that any member of the Region desires
    to be heard on the anticipated action, a request for hearing shall be submitted in writing and be
    received by the National Board within the time set forth above. In such event, the National Board
    shall delay its determination as it deems necessary, in its sole discretion, to reasonably review the
    hearing request. In the absence of such request, the National Board may vote upon the suspension or
    revocation without formal hearing. If the Board determines that the provisions of the Bylaws of the
    Association have been violated or the Region has committed acts detrimental to the welfare or best
    interest of the Association, the National Board may, by majority vote, suspend or revoke the charter
    of the Region. If the Region 's charter is revoked, such Region is disaffiliated from the Association.
    If the Board suspends the charter of a Region, a definite time during which such suspension is effective
    must be determined and declared by the Board. The members with in the region may transfer to one
    of the other Regions. If a members does not select a region the Business Office may assign one.


    As for the statements about distributions to regions and your reliance on emails/in writing, and if none are found or presented it seems you would take Beth's word as to the proper distribution. But since the distribution is stated in the bylaws and does not have any language making an international region distribution different from US regions, the default should be the 50-50 as stated in the bylaws notwithstanding revised directives as approved by the BOD (for which there should be meeting minutes verifying such an aggreement). You cannot twist the lack of in-writing changes makes a deferment to other than the bylaws or formal BOD directives.

    Section 5 Dues
    All dues shall be distributed pursuant to the discretion of the National Board. The Association will be
    required to do its best in paying dues on a monthly basis. Also upon these Bylaws being enacted, the
    initial distribution shall be 50% to the assigned region and 50% to national on both regular and Mamba
    memberships.
    The distribution rate shall be reviewed at such time the annual dues and annual budget
    process is completed to be no later than the fourth quarter for the next year’s dues and distribution. The
    distribution to the regions may be changed by majority vote by the Board in accordance with all the rules
    within these bylaws. Prorated standard dues are available on a first time basis to new members (existing
    members who have been active in the last three years are ineligible for this discount). Schedule of
    prorated dues for regular and Mamba memberships as follows:

  16. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    Bruce,

    I understand and just want to answer the questions to what I understand the question to be. If there are e-mails that frame that agreement then we need to see them. If it's a word of mouth agreement then it becomes a very difficult position to support any agreement that was then not enacted without a change to the by-laws by the BOD, no matter what was said. It is either in writing or it is not. If its not in writing (e-mail proof or a resolution drafted between the parties) then it did not occur, in my book, even if it did. And I find it hard to believe that it would be the same for most anyone who is part of the current discussion as well.
    On Oct. 25th Beth sent the email to myself and the full executive. I copied it above and have just forwarded the email from Beth to you. You now have the proof you seek.

    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    Bruce, this is very hard to explain and is one of the reasons why we need a fixed price schedule for membership.

    Depending on when your members join depends on how much they paid - this is not a final product - but what we are seeing in the way of dues collected and the pay outs:

    So, if all your members joined in the 1st quarter it is pretty easy math - which it looks like those above are in that 1st quarter. However, if your members joined in the second or third quarter then the fee collect becomes more complicated math when you look at totals for the year - I need to verify the data you provided but I do not have the ability to pull your data as I am not a user with the right privileges. I will try and get the numbers from Joe to see what each membership type was for Ontario by quarter for 2021 and then run the numbers myself to see where the numbers fall out. I know there is also some built in algorithm based on how the portal collects the renewals and outputs some magic number for payment, I need to look at those algorithms for myself with the web-manager.

    2021 in not on the sheet as I did not have the information to fill in, this week I should have those numbers.
    Wes, hey I get it. I appreciate your attention to detail, as do I. The example I've shown above is easy math because it's from Q4, which like Q1, is not complicated like Q2 and Q3 as you correctly point out. I'd like a statement that properly shows the dues being paid. At the moment all the regions get is 2 numbers...gross and net, no breakdown at all. Our previous president was never able to get that despite repeatedly asking.

    Bruce
    Last edited by Bruce H.; 11-22-2021 at 11:07 AM.
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  17. #492
    Wesley Frasard
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperSRT View Post
    This is the only place in the bylaws that I found the mail directive. It does not seem to apply in the case you are stating unless the VOA board is attempting to remove the Ontario charter from the VOA. Maybe you read the bylaws differently but the way you are stating it appears to be a big twist of reason.

    Section 6 Suspension or Revocation of Charter
    The National Board may suspend or revoke the charter of any Region. The Board shall give a thirty
    (30) day written notice to each member of the Region setting forth that it is the intention of the
    Board to suspend or revoke the charter of such Region. The notice must be mailed (US Mail without
    any certification or return receipt required) to each member of the Region at the address currently
    shown on the National membership records.
    In the event that any member of the Region desires
    to be heard on the anticipated action, a request for hearing shall be submitted in writing and be
    received by the National Board within the time set forth above. In such event, the National Board
    shall delay its determination as it deems necessary, in its sole discretion, to reasonably review the
    hearing request. In the absence of such request, the National Board may vote upon the suspension or
    revocation without formal hearing. If the Board determines that the provisions of the Bylaws of the
    Association have been violated or the Region has committed acts detrimental to the welfare or best
    interest of the Association, the National Board may, by majority vote, suspend or revoke the charter
    of the Region. If the Region 's charter is revoked, such Region is disaffiliated from the Association.
    If the Board suspends the charter of a Region, a definite time during which such suspension is effective
    must be determined and declared by the Board. The members with in the region may transfer to one
    of the other Regions. If a members does not select a region the Business Office may assign one.


    As for the statements about distributions to regions and your reliance on emails/in writing, and if none are found or presented it seems you would take Beth's word as to the proper distribution. But since the distribution is stated in the bylaws and does not have any language making an international region distribution different from US regions, the default should be the 50-50 as stated in the bylaws notwithstanding revised directives as approved by the BOD (for which there should be meeting minutes verifying such an aggreement). You cannot twist the lack of in-writing changes makes a deferment to other than the bylaws or formal BOD directives.

    Section 5 Dues
    All dues shall be distributed pursuant to the discretion of the National Board. The Association will be
    required to do its best in paying dues on a monthly basis. Also upon these Bylaws being enacted, the
    initial distribution shall be 50% to the assigned region and 50% to national on both regular and Mamba
    memberships.
    The distribution rate shall be reviewed at such time the annual dues and annual budget
    process is completed to be no later than the fourth quarter for the next year’s dues and distribution. The
    distribution to the regions may be changed by majority vote by the Board in accordance with all the rules
    within these bylaws. Prorated standard dues are available on a first time basis to new members (existing
    members who have been active in the last three years are ineligible for this discount). Schedule of
    prorated dues for regular and Mamba memberships as follows:
    Yeap, in Section 6 those are the words... but no appetite, thank goodness, for the rest of what is going on in that statement.

    On to the read on Section 5...

    All dues shall be distributed pursuant to the discretion of the National Board. The Association will be
    required to do its best in paying dues on a monthly basis. Also upon these Bylaws being enacted, the
    initial distribution shall be 50% to the assigned region and 50% to national on both regular and Mamba
    memberships. The distribution rate shall be reviewed at such time the annual dues and annual budget
    process is completed to be no later than the fourth quarter for the next year’s dues and distribution
    . The
    distribution to the regions may be changed by majority vote by the Board in accordance with all the rules
    within these bylaws.


    That is why I said what I said... depends how you read it, how the agreement was made, what agreement was in place that allowed this practice to be enacted in the first place. I need to see it in writing, not based on a verbal communications agreed to eight years ago and long lost between the parties that agreed to this decision. Once the agreement was made it should have been codified in an amendment to the by-laws or through the re-write of the by-laws.
    Last edited by viperguy69; 11-22-2021 at 11:24 AM.
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    Wes,

    IMO, if there is a written agreement between parties and its vaque in certain areas (But not really vague from what ViperSRT posted that was in Section 5 DUES), normal resoulution goes against the party who created the vagueness in the first place, which would be the National VOA. In this case, Bruce is really giving the VOA a break in that area of what is really owed to the region. He only wants what is fairly owed .

  19. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    That is why I said what I said... depends how you read it, how the agreement was made, what agreement was in place that allowed this practice to be enacted in the first place. I need to see it in writing, not based on a verbal communications agreed to eight years ago and long lost between the parties that agreed to this decision. Once the agreement was made it should have been codified in an amendment to the by-laws or through the re-write of the by-laws.
    No, not what you said. Not in emails, not in writing, but in BOD meeting minutes indicating it was voted on and approved. The statement is clear. It states that change can only be made by: "changed by majority vote by the Board in accordance with all the rules." If no documentation exists it should be 50-50, the same as all other regional distributions.

    I agree with the last statement that it should be in the bylaws.
    Last edited by ViperSRT; 11-22-2021 at 11:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    Jeff,

    Even if you do not rejoin this year, I still would want a hard critique on things that we are thinking about when it comes to ideas on the table to get the membership wants and wishes within the operating budget.

    To address a few of your specific questions more directly:

    1) Ontario (along with all the internationals) had an agreement with the VOA that was worked out a while back (early years of the VOA). I have not seen what those e-mails yet, so I cannot quote what exactly is in there but in discussions this evening with the people who drafted that agreement the cost share was reduced because the VQM magazine could only be shipped to international members through International 1st Class Mail - very expensive. The agreement was that the insurance offset from what US members get plus the cost of shipping fees for 1st Class international mail to the international members would be split 50/50 with VOA. The agreement said that shipping costs would come out of the 50/50 international regional split for what the internationals received to cover their 50% international shipping cost share for the VQM. Those documents seemed to have been not provided to the current international presidents when they turned over, multiple times now, with their predecessors. We should be getting those e-mails shortly and I believe they will be shared with the regional presidents, from my understanding. However, International membership will have its own committee so that we can get consensus and then put this into writing within by-laws where it may need to go. If the magazine is an e-magazine then I cannot see why the internationals should not return back to a 50/50 cost share. Again, right now, everything is on the table and open for discussion and work to be drafted by a committee for a vote by the BOD.

    2) The COVID $175K loan - we qualified for $500K under a SBA + EIDL Grant under clubs based on the tax documents summited and information provided - treasurer has his name and the VOA name on the loan. We have a 2.75% loan for 30 years with repayment to start in 2025, 2 year reprieve. We currently have $144K in the account but billings from Wilson and VMQ tie up the remaining funds. We used part of the loan to pay the remaining 2021 regional split shares for the rest of the year and the 2022 Insurance Policy. Now, to start the story here you have to initially assume you were under the accrual method of accounting. Now you will hear this loan was to cover losses from NVE, which is part of the answer but not the full answer. Again, membership was never designed to cover all the bills - fact. NVE profits (about $40K) were one of the items needed to cover those things that membership fees did not fully cover, as history had told us it would. Lots of moving parts and cash accounting masked the liabilities up until all the billings started to come in, early summer 2021 and NVE cash on the books started liquidating. After delayed NVE was over, the delayed VMQ went to print, and the delayed Wilson billings came in along with the 2022 Philadelphia Insurance billing hit the books we saw the deficit balloon form about -$70K in July to -$195K today in a very short time period. My assumption is that - assumed accrual method being used when cash accounting was actually in place initially distracted the team from what was really going on with the finances. That had the accrual method had been used it would have showed the team the financial issues much sooner.

    3) The accrual to cash basis change happened with the change in Treasurer back in 2018. The new treasurer deals with a lot of accounts with his business that uses the cash basis method. He opted for a system he knows best. Since nobody asked questions or challenged him after the first year's financial reports he just continued to use the cash basis for accounting. It was a personal decision without notification. We are pretty much going to use the accrual method and it will be another issue to be addressed in the by-laws along with a requirement to provide a balanced budget proposal to BOD in February each year and monthly statements providing the current status of funds each month to the BOD and to the membership.

    The rest of the information:

    NVE is being looked by a Committee very differently than in the past. Mike is talking and coordinating the current NVE-5 to try and figure out how it can be a self-supporting event that will not drain from membership dues to continue with planning efforts - more to follow. Also, new accounts to transfer money into is the way to insulates and isolates the funds from the rest of the VOA budget as to not provide a false impression for where we sit financially. I initially thought its own everything but I do not want to pay another service fee on CC services used. However, we do need to look at cheaper alternatives then a CC that charges us 3.74% transaction fee. Paypal is about 2% and we are looking into things like Venmo.

    Once we get into the Committee structure in place we will be able to share better plans for:
    1) VMQ - All options need to be looked at. And e-magazine platform under review is under $50/month to publish the magazine but we need to still work out the Editing and Design costs.
    2) NVE – Single-tier or multi-tier (pick your party) NVE structure needs to be developed by the NVE committee and prices flush out. I know there were several events that I had no plans on attending that were paid for anyway during NVE-4.
    3) VOA Store - This needs a really hard look as it cannot be a drag on cost based on storage fees that are being assessed each month and the handling fee cost every time an item is sold.
    4) National Insurance - Why? We only need to cover the officers and the BOD with D&O insurance unless I am missing something! Again, for a committee to review and report back to the BOD.
    Would kindly offer mys assistance either way. You have my email address and phone number...just reach out.

  21. #496
    Wesley Frasard
    VOA National Vice President
    VOA Mamba Member
    since 2018
    Capital Vipers (DC/DE/MD/VA)
    viperguy69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperSRT View Post
    No, not what you said. Not in emails, not in writing, but in BOD meeting minutes indicating it was voted on and approved. The statement is clear. It states that change can only be made by: "changed by majority vote by the Board in accordance with all the rules." If no documentation exists it should be 50-50, the same as all other regional distributions.

    I agree with the last statement that it should be in the bylaws.
    Yes, I agree with that is how it should have been done. But it wasn't and the reduction was carried through for years and year-after-year... I agree that Bruce has a valid and bonified argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Wes,

    IMO, if there is a written agreement between parties and its vaque in certain areas (But not really vague from what ViperSRT posted that was in Section 5 DUES), normal resoulution goes against the party who created the vagueness in the first place, which would be the National VOA. In this case, Bruce is really giving the VOA a break in that area of what is really owed to the region. He only wants what is fairly owed .
    I have been informed why those by-laws were written so vague, for the time they were written that may have been ok. However, that was a long time ago and we obviously need a set of rules to follow and that set of rules needs to be followed. Otherwise we will continuously find ourselves in these situations.
    Last edited by viperguy69; 11-22-2021 at 12:12 PM.
    2005 Copperhead #10/300
    2014 Carbon Edition #37/50
    20XX Replica Project Viper #1/1

  22. #497
    Wesley Frasard
    VOA National Vice President
    VOA Mamba Member
    since 2018
    Capital Vipers (DC/DE/MD/VA)
    viperguy69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Would kindly offer mys assistance either way. You have my email address and phone number...just reach out.
    Thank you and I will be looking for your assistance and sanity check...
    2005 Copperhead #10/300
    2014 Carbon Edition #37/50
    20XX Replica Project Viper #1/1

  23. #498
    Regional Membership Director
    VOA Member
    since 2013
    Ontario
    J TNT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Bruce,

    I can only guess, at who this person could be. The current president needs to go ahead and resign, the past presidents, Maurice and Alex need to get out of the running of the club, that is why we have elections every two years. The board on this next meeting needs to take a vote of confidence to keep the current president or asked her to step down.
    You make a Great Point !

    It shouldn't be this convoluted to get simple compensation back of our own Dues.
    This should have been made right when it was first Flagged and speaks volumes that it hasn't ...........
    Charter Member ,

  24. #499
    From the outside looking in, this looks like a colossal mess - and I'm really not sure why things are this complicated. I feel like there is a lot of simplification that can be done to the overall structure and operations of this "club".

    And the reality is that as a new owner, I have yet to see a GOOD reason to join for the price. And the few times I've asked, the response I get is always vague and circular.

    Why should I join? "Because it has electrolytes."
    But why is that worth joining? "Because it's what plants crave."

    Standard Membership level - $150.00
    Includes the following benefits and features:
    Looks cool, but unnecessary - especially with the car out of production - Virtual VIPER QUARTERLY Magazine, our AWARD WINNING publication!
    DON'T CARE - Your VOA membership card(s) and ID Badge(s)
    DON'T CARE - General liability insurance when attending VOA sponsored events as defined by the insurance policy (certain events require purchasing an additional rider)
    Not sure how much of a benefit this really is anymore, especially for a DIYer like myself - Access to the VOA Tech Team which provides completely free technical assistance for all Vipers!
    Not thoroughly convincing, but maybe? - Discounts with select Viper Owners Association sponsors including many Mopar dealers, tuners, and aftermarket vendors
    Not thoroughly convincing, but maybe? - Special membership-only access and posting benefits on the Viper Owners Association Website www.driveviper.com
    DON'T CARE - Viper Owners will also be noted on the website forum pages with the designation of "Member"
    DON'T CARE; Facebook Marketplace and Groups make this obsolete - Free classified ads in the VOA classified section
    DON'T CARE - Special VOA gift included with your registration
    DON'T CARE - Use of VOA Headquarters - your club concierge
    DON'T CARE - VOA member-only offers/specials and freebies
    DON'T CARE - VOA newsletter which keeps you intimately aware of Viper news, club activities, and special deals
    Is there not an option to ONLY do this? Also, what benefit does the local offer? I've heard and seen nothing. - Membership to your selected local VOA region
    DON'T CARE - Membership in the LARGEST national Viper club on the planet

    Mamba Membership level - $195.00
    Help increase funding for the club and gain additional benefits above and beyond the standard membership which includes:
    Looks cool, but unnecessary - Printed and virtual VIPER QUARTERLY Magazine, our AWARD WINNING publication!
    DON'T CARE - Special Mamba Membership badges
    DON'T CARE - Mamba decal (3" X 3")
    DON'T CARE - Special tag of "Mamba" on the VOA website forums
    DON'T CARE - Public acknowledgment on the special Mamba Membership appreciation page in VIPER QUARTERLY Magazine
    I care, depending on the size of discount - Special discounts on VOA national events
    Some of the webpages and items that are benefits have not been updated in 4-5 years. For instance, "Discounts to VOA National Events" is listed as a benefit. So I look at the "Events" page. It hasn't been updated since 2017. So there are no "Bucket List" events going on anymore? Only NVE? That makes that "benefit" a lot less appealing. Why aren't there pictures, videos, etc posted about NVE? If it's supposed to be a great event, show it off and convince me.

    I've supported multiple car forums/clubs before, but the benefits were much more valid and 'openly available' (aka, they told us the discounts up front)... and the price was significantly less.
    Last edited by usmcfieldmp; 11-22-2021 at 02:34 PM.
    1997 Dodge Viper GTS || Matte Bentley Silver | 62k miles || Project Thread

    2005 Chevrolet Cobalt SS || 2002 Audi TT Quattro || 1986 Volkswagen GTI

  25. #500
    VOA Member
    since 2013
    Central North Florida
    ViperSRT's Avatar
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    Rochester Hills, MI & Orlando, FL
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    A long time comment regarding Mamba membership costs is that they may be costing the club more than they earn. For instance (using 2022 costs):

    Member joins as a Mamba member for $45 more per year
    Member receives VQ print version. Print cost per year ~$40, Mailing and handling costs per year ~$20, Editing cost of $24 (all based on costs of $140,000 for 1700 members from previous years, actual expense with fewer magazines will be higher) = $84/yr
    Member attends NVE every 2 years with spouse ($300 savings or $150 per year)

    So for a $45 revenue and $234 expenses, for an annual loss of $189. Now not every Mamba attends NVE, nor do all pay for Mamba in off NVE years. Assuming only 20% of total Mamba memberships attend an NVE it would be $45 revenue and $114 expenses, for an annual loss of $69. Did anyone do the math when deciding to offer $150/PP discount to NVE for Mamba memberships??? No wonder we need NVE profits to make up for the losses!
    Last edited by ViperSRT; 11-22-2021 at 04:32 PM.


 
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