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  1. #526
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    Wow, now I see why the BoD meetings are not open as stated in the bylaws.

    This new input is not helping me in determining whether to register for next year or not. And though the bio for Jim Johnson looks very good, anyone on the board who feels that silencing those who voice their opinions is appropriate should be removed from the club post haste. In addition covering up for Maurice and the magazine is exactly what is driving this club deep into the red. I mean how can anyone expect the club to provide a benefit of around $80 per person ($140k divided amongst 1700 members) with an income well below that? You do not need a business degree to see the faulty logic in that.

    As for Joe not being a CPA his bio should be changed as it clearly implies he is a CPA. There is no such thing as a CPA firm. There are accounting firms, tax preparation firms, etc. CPA is a term to indicate that the person or persons are certified public accountants. If he has 6 years of accounting based schooling (I assume that to be a bachelors degree in business followed by an MBA) he should have known the ills of cash flow basis management. If he managed it correctly there would also be a balance sheet summation at the end of each fiscal year which would provide a full accrual of net worth. Without the balance sheet the real health of the entity would be unknown and lead to this exact kind of disaster.

    Bottom line if this far into the fall of the VOA empire BoD discussion topics centered on the above there is no possible way to save the club. They need to cleanse the poor performers and deal with the causes of financial bliss. And that means the $140,000 elephant in the room. Whether a founder is proud of his baby or not, it is the elephant and must be disposed with.

  2. #527
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    There's no question that the Viper Quarterly became a cash drain once sponsor support and membership dropped following the end of Viper production. There was an attempt to reduce that drain, with the 2022 renewal changes cutting back the quantity of printed magazines by switching to a digital copy for all Standard members. It's been argued that the magazine should have been put on hiatus until it was deemed affordable, reducing cost to $0.

    But the problem was 67% of the partial Board that attended that meeting approved the 2022 renew plan in a quick vote. That committed the 2022 leadership team to a magazine the VOA can not afford, and now can't stop producing. I believe members would rather the VOA take decisive action to stop the cash hemorrhaging and put their finances in order quickly, even if it means giving up the printed and digital magazines they were promised as they renewed for 2022. I personally would have liked them to cancel the 2 upcoming ones for 2021 as well. Those combined magazine savings would change the financial situation dramatically, and instantly.

    So how would members feel if they where told they would not be receiving the magazines they were promised? Would they accept it short-term for long-term gain?
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  3. #528
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  4. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Nine items taken away from the November 21, 2021 “Open” BoD meeting. Further explanation of main topics below.

    4. Jim Johnson, VOA By Laws Director and Colorado Region President wanted the Club to delete negative comments on the forum
    5. Jim also, said that is the Enthusiast are the main ones complaining on the forum
    10. Have to admit, Wes, the incoming VOA VP has some great ideas but will others listen.


    1. During the meeting it was briefed that Beth and Joe were basically running the club, but did not explain why, Mike Kuchavik current VOA VP and ED Massena, current VOA Secretary and all the region presidents were doing at this time. During this time Joe was trying to find different funding options for the club’s debt.

    4 and 5 .Jim Johnson suggested since the VOA owned the forum, they should delete the negative comments. To which Alex QUICKLY chimed in and said that was a bad idea. Jim, like Mike (the incoming VOA president) did not take time to review who’s writing in the forum. Jim said they should be deleted because 50 to 60 percent of those complaining were only enthusiast.

    Jim is the same region president who telephoned me and asked why I gave Maurice a hard time over the club’s spending at NVE3. Apparently, if you disagree with Jim’s train of thought, you need to be quiet or be deleted.
    I worked with Jim on the old club board and with the formation of VOA. I haven't seen or spoken with him since 2014. But...I find it odd Jim believes the above considering that he himself was silenced, exiled and was to made to be the last clubs' leaderships' red-headed step child. If I'm not mistaken, I think he was suspended from the old club for speaking out. He was censored on the old forums, fought against deleting comments, etc. Against the very things he's allegedly pushing for above. I remember in 2013 Maurice gave him a set of bronze-balls keychain...as a funny gesture for how the old club treated him. Not surprised he's standing up for Maurice, they go way back. But this wreaks of the old club behaviors whereby the good ole' boys were defending their friends in leadership vs. doing the right things.
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  5. #530
    Enthusiast CarolinaViper's Avatar
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    ViperToney

    I wasn’t around back then but read a lot of threads. Wasn’t sure which club to join. I joined the right one. Just hope the old crew let’s go and let some new ideas come in. I would have been more opened to the idea that they just admitted their mistakes and bad judgments and asked everyone to donate $100.00. With the promise that until the debt was cleared there would be no magazine or NVEs. There would be no need for loans or deep discussions on the forum. Some probably would have donated more.

  6. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    ViperToney

    I wasn’t around back then but read a lot of threads. Wasn’t sure which club to join. I joined the right one. Just hope the old crew let’s go and let some new ideas come in. I would have been more opened to the idea that they just admitted their mistakes and bad judgments and asked everyone to donate $100.00. With the promise that until the debt was cleared there would be no magazine or NVEs. There would be no need for loans or deep discussions on the forum. Some probably would have donated more.
    100% correct.

  7. #532
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    Glad everyone had a great Thanksgiving with friends and family.

    While you are spending energy posting (all valid points being repeated since day one) others are actually volunteering their time to research and recommend changes.

    Ideas a dime a dozen. People who "do" are rare. Ever been in a job where you worked worked and worked, but there was always that guy pissing and moaning?

    I have been a member here but a few short four years. In that time:

    Ask yourself, did Brian post on the Forum why DE, MD, VA didn't have a region and who was responsible? Answer, no he just did it.

    Ask yourself, did Brian post on the Forum who was going to help Roy Sjoberg put together the Greenbriar Concours? Answer, no he just did it.

    Ask yourself, did Brian post on the Forum who was going to organize Amelia Island to honor Roy? Answer, no he just did it and did it and did it.

    Ask yourself, did Brian post on the Forum who was going to organize the Hilton Head Concours for Roy and Team Viper? Answer, no he just did it.

    Ask yourself, did Brian post on the Forum who was going to create a program to honor Mr. Lutz, Mr. Gale, Mr. Castaing, Mr. Shelby, Roy Sjoberg, and Team Viper? Answer, no he just did it?

    Ask yourself, did Brian make the VOA pay the Spirit of Viper Program? Answer, no he found donors and contributed a lot of his own money. More than any of you have spent on memberships since 2014.

    So, I apologize if I seem a little salty. But for four years, I have been a doer. Not perfect. Made plenty of mistakes. But a doer nonetheless.

    Nothing is perfect. But with you help, it can be closer to perfect. If it isn't as you like, then there is one person to blame - YOU for not being involved. Volunteering on the Forums is not volunteering.

    Now, I am off to do more volunteer work for my region and another volunteer effort.

    Call me. I can find the perfect spot for you to help the VOA have a great 2022. If you are not renewing, then go spend time with you kids or your wife.

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    BTW - thank you to Jeff for his willingness to help
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  8. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viperenvy View Post
    Glad everyone had a great Thanksgiving with friends and family.

    While you are spending energy posting (all valid points being repeated since day one) others are actually volunteering their time to research and recommend changes.

    Ideas a dime a dozen. People who "do" are rare. Ever been in a job where you worked worked and worked, but there was always that guy pissing and moaning?

    I have been a member here but a few short four years. In that time:

    Ask yourself, did Brian post on the Forum why DE, MD, VA didn't have a region and who was responsible? Answer, no he just did it.

    Ask yourself, did Brian post on the Forum who was going to help Roy Sjoberg put together the Greenbriar Concours? Answer, no he just did it.

    Ask yourself, did Brian post on the Forum who was going to organize Amelia Island to honor Roy? Answer, no he just did it and did it and did it.

    Ask yourself, did Brian post on the Forum who was going to organize the Hilton Head Concours for Roy and Team Viper? Answer, no he just did it.

    Ask yourself, did Brian post on the Forum who was going to create a program to honor Mr. Lutz, Mr. Gale, Mr. Castaing, Mr. Shelby, Roy Sjoberg, and Team Viper? Answer, no he just did it?

    Ask yourself, did Brian make the VOA pay the Spirit of Viper Program? Answer, no he found donors and contributed a lot of his own money. More than any of you have spent on memberships since 2014.

    So, I apologize if I seem a little salty. But for four years, I have been a doer. Not perfect. Made plenty of mistakes. But a doer nonetheless.

    Nothing is perfect. But with you help, it can be closer to perfect. If it isn't as you like, then there is one person to blame - YOU for not being involved. Volunteering on the Forums is not volunteering.

    Now, I am off to do more volunteer work for my region and another volunteer effort.

    Call me. I can find the perfect spot for you to help the VOA have a great 2022. If you are not renewing, then go spend time with you kids or your wife.

    248-705-1245

    BTW - thank you to Jeff for his willingness to help
    edit: I'll keep that rude comment to myself.

    Thanks for ALL you do Brian.

    You're a real do-er.
    Last edited by 13COBRA; 11-26-2021 at 04:07 PM.

  9. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by [B
    ViperTony[/B];450596] I worked with Jim on the old club board and with the formation of VOA. I haven't seen or spoken with him since 2014. But... I find it odd Jim believes the above considering that he himself was silenced, exiled and was to made to be the last clubs' leaderships' red-headed step child. If I'm not mistaken, I think he was suspended from the old club for speaking out. He was censored on the old forums, fought against deleting comments, etc. Against the very things he's allegedly pushing for above. I remember in 2013 Maurice gave him a set of bronze-balls keychain...as a funny gesture for how the old club treated him. Not surprised he's standing up for Maurice, they go way back. But this wreaks of the old club behaviors whereby the good ole' boys were defending their friends in leadership vs. doing the right things.
    I can 100% confirm Viper Tony above. The brass-balls were because Jim Johnson stood up to the the Marshall Clan to the point that the Clan hired an armed security guard to keep Jim OUT of the BOD meetings he was elected to attend. Jim supported me 110% in that purge-era, and I will never forget it. He was my hero in fact. I have known him since 1994-ish Hint: The "Viper Alley Thread" and the Jalopnik Blogs were made possible because Jim J. did the right thing back then. Unconditionally, In real-time, Over and Over. Wanting to save the original 1995-2010 club we loved. Really, a silent hero.

    But: That was then... this is now.
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  10. #535
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    Brian, it's unfair to blame members who were shocked to learn of the financial crisis, concerned, wanting to know what's going on, frustrated that national executive leadership won't tell them, nor some club presidents who they elected to represent them with the VOA, angry because it's clear that they have not been competently represented by the national executive and the VOA Board made up of region presidents whose job it is to oversee the operations of the VOA, examine and approve annual budgets, make and approve key decisions, and ultimately bear the responsibility for safeguarding membership's dues, and the financial success of the VOA.

    To blame members for not stepping up when those who did step up have brought the VOA down is completely unfair. The VOA is not where it is today for the lack of people to volunteer and step up, it was caused by those who did. You've taken personal responsibility for some things, presidents who can't be bothered attending Board meetings are another, those who care so little that they don't communicate with their membership are another, those who defend bad practices another, those on the Board who disagree but won't debate and fight to do the right thing are another, and those willing to accept conflicts of interest another.

    No Brian, volunteers could have done nothing to prevent the problem. Volunteers are needed to help in some areas, like to try to increase sponsorship revenue, and that was needed starting 4 years ago...I'm unaware if volunteers were ever solicited for that, which probably means they weren't.

    Leadership is struggling to figure out what needs to be done, and I'm sure when they have a plan, and communicate it well, that they'll be able to address the membership with their volunteer requirements and members will step up, but until then it appears to membership that the ship is drifting, and the captain is MIA.
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  11. #536
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    Brian,
    You're a nice guy and I appreciate what you've accomplished over the years, but as stated above, that's a low blow. If everyone needed to do the work themselves, then what are we paying for? If I pay into insurance and crash my car, I expect the company I paid into to pay out. If they tell me they can't pay me, I'm naturally pissed and will fight. I'm not going to open a lemonade stand and raise money on my own to pour more cash into the company that dropped the ball to fix their problems. We're members, not the volunteers that took the wheel and drove off a cliff. Heck, we didn't even know about this until recently.

    And I brought questions to my region president. Was told to step up or stop complaining. Took it to emails and never got a response in over a week now. I was simply asking for the current balance of funds in my region so I could try to plan something with an actual budget. Matter of fact, I asked those same questions in the Spring and got no response. I see snotty attitude responses from the National Pres on Facebook. Bad form. I see push back from trying to help. Doesn't sit well with me at all.

    You know me well, we've talked plenty of times. You know I love Vipers as much as anyone on here. But, this is all one big joke at this point. National should've been removed from office for the gross negligence. It's all smoke and mirrors to me. I'm joining the not renewing club.

  12. #537
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    I have great hope that the new 2022 VOA executive will guide the club with competence and integrity, and provide the means, opportunity and encouragement to make the Board better. They have an enormous task in front of them, and I know they're going to work their butts off trying. I'm not as hopeful that region presidents will have learned the incredible importance of their work, but I hope that this spotlight will encourage those who are not up to the job to step down or aside. Too many have failed to stand up to current and past leaders when they needed to, and hopefully this same light will weaken their influence on the Board, and encourage them to let the new executive lead in a new direction.

    This can be fixed.
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  13. #538
    Questions. Was a Form 3115 filed with the IRS to obtain permission to change the method of accounting from accrual to cash? What impact, if any, did the change have on the data reported on the Form 990? What financial data was submitted to the government and the bank to obtain the loan? Is any part of the loan subject to being forgiven under the program used to obtain it; and, if so, is it forgiven without the recognition of the eliminated debt being deemed income? If so, is that income considered income that is exempt or a different type of income? Thank you in advance for your answers.
    Last edited by Unlimtd; 11-26-2021 at 07:05 PM.

  14. #539
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    Shh Unlimtd. We were told above by Brian that if we do not volunteer for something we shouldn't ask any questions. This is the new VOA, where normal members who have not volunteered at the national level have a lower status where we should sit down and shut up.
    Last edited by ViperSRT; 11-26-2021 at 07:03 PM.

  15. #540
    Wesley Frasard
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    As, I don’t have access to the private region president’s thread site, this is my only access to them…hope they are reading.

    Wes, hopefully you understand these comments are not only pointed to you. The questions on the forum will hopefully stimulate interest and comments within the region presidents. Hopefully, Joe is reading this. I admire his time that he puts in. My dad was a CPA and wanted me to follow in his steps. So I do understand a little of what he does and understand from January - May Joe is burning the midnight oil. Joe thanks for your commitment. Did Joe make a misjudgment, apparently yes, but a decision such as that should have been brought up to the entire board. We can learn from this and other mistakes the club has made in the past if they are brought out in the open.

    I like history and think things need to be recorded, brought up, and discussed so we learn from our past mistakes. But not only our mistakes but learned what worked great. For example, I asked Alex, during NVE-3, if he would publish something like what I had to do after each operations/deployment while in the military, Wes you may know it by a different name but back then it was an After Action Report. This would give the next person/group in charge of the NVE a great idea of what went great and not so great.

    Now on to the region presidents, I think the club’s yearly budget should only be based on known factors. Counting on NVE’s to provide income is like taking a chance on the stock market. Sometimes you can make it but other times like from 2008 -2010 (last recession) you cannot. Those investors that need immediately access (like the club does now) saw a tremendous loss in what they thought they had access to. Our recession started in late 2017, when Dodge quit production of the Viper. With the change of the accounting system, it was not brought to light until the last year or so. Yes the stock market took several years to rebound, but during those years people who counted on their portfolios were highly disappointed. Unfortunately, the clubs revenues never improved.

    After the first NVE, we had a lost, if it was the club’s original intentions that membership dues would not cover the yearly budget (AGAIN HOW MANY REGION PRESIDENTS KNOW THIS NOW OR BACK THEN), what steps did they take to ensure our budget would be sustainable after seeing a loss during the first NVE. Fortunately, the NVEs didn’t have a loss until the last one. After seeing the first loss in the NVE, the club should have taken precautions over the next year budget.

    The question that should have been asked back then but wasn’t (not blaming anyone), is the following: “what should we do with this windfall.” “What happens if the next NVE doesn’t produce a profit?” This is why the VOA’s budget should be based on knowns such as past year memberships. If you see these memberships decreasing, you will have ample time to adjust, not hope that a NVE will save the day.

    Also, what may be helpful, is a region president’s handbook/guide with a section of the past history: The Good, Bad and Ugly, so we don’t repeat the same things in the future.

    Wes, thank you for sharing why we got a COVID loan, but in my opinion, we were very lucky in the timing to qualify for this loan, as there is really nothing COVID related that caused our current financial status. The club’s financial problems were years in the making (way before COVID), with over spending, poor daily management from the National Officers, little engagement from majority of region presidents, current and ex-national presidents who would not listed to others and not letting go when they should.

    For those region presidents who are not actively involved, please step forwarded, put friendship aside for a little while. This club can rebound if you all take an active role. Those new region presidents, like I was need to be listen to. The older region presidents, who were involved with the old club are repeating the same mistakes…which is not listening to other’s point of views, picking sides and not being opened minded.

    Using a baseball analogy, there were errors of omission and commission committed. Both were made over the several years and both can be as bad as the other.
    One last thing, if you can respond with your name, position (if any) and region, it would help keep name and titles straight. Reviewing these threads on a smart phone (at least mine) doesn’t include region affiliation/position. When reading these threads on my iPhone I got the current and in-coming VOA VP mixed up.

    Thanks,

    Jeff Barnes, Carolina Region (ex-region president)
    Jeff, agree with all the above.

    You bringing up many of the same points that we all see. NVE will get a face lift as to how we are going to do it. Next $10K deposit is not due until Sept 2021, not my intent to use our membership funds to cover any more NVE-5 costs. We need to start the collection process for non-refundable $100 deposit, we may need to incentivize the early payees to ensure we get money to offset these security deposits. We need to understand the core expenses of an NVE. Yes, I said core expense for core items and core events as we need to have a selectable options menu that are all-hands NVE core events and other things that members may want to. This should allow the NVE-5 planning committee to better shape the cost and give the membership what the want and are willing to pay for. Core cost need to be Welcome Gifts, 1st Day's Happy Hour, 2nd Day's Luncheon, and Last Day's Club Dinner - or whatever events they decide are NVE core. We then need to look at additional options like Tack Day, Wine Tasting, Legends Dinner, Pike's Peak Cruise, and whatever other items members may be interested in at an additional cost above core.

    I have a major issues with using membership dues from the general membership to cover anything other the 2022 billings, an NVE event that some have no intention on attending is not an expense the club needs to worry about. We need to be a little more penny wise and dollar smart in everything we do in 2022. I am going to try and put a few hours a day into these forums, only to answer questions that is within my ability to answer. Sorry about the delayed response.
    Last edited by viperguy69; 11-26-2021 at 07:42 PM.
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  16. #541
    Interesting how this Jim guy from Colorado talks about the enthusiast making comments are not important and should be removed so no one can see them

    Fact is, we are not members while Viper owners. The ones that could easily be talked into a membership if something of value was offered rather than supporting a few that obviously are taking advantage of this club financially

    So if they truly wanted to increase the membership, we should be a target group they should try to entice....not one that should be silenced because we have an opinion

  17. #542
    ^100% agree!

  18. #543
    Enthusiast CarolinaViper's Avatar
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    Wes,

    Have you guys got a cost breakdown on what its going to cost to publish the VQ for Mamba membership for 300/500/700/900 Mamba members. As below, you can see we are enticing members to join as Mamba members with the magazine. According to the figures below it only cost $11.25 per copy, package, and mail. I've asked before but received no answer. Hopefully, the club figured this price out before making promises that may put us futher in the hole.


    DUES INCREASE IS NECESSARY
    Decreasing revenue from advertisers and sponsors and increasing costs over the past 7 years have made it necessary for us to increase dues for the first time in our 7 years of existence. To help drive down costs and increase revenue, we are putting together task forces to look at specific areas! Hey, we're also changing with the times and for the first time are offering a virtual magazine to our members!

    Mamba membership increases from $150 to $195 and will continue to receive a printed Viper Quarterly plus access to the digital copy
    Standard membership increases from $115 to $150 and the only change is the Viper Quarterly will be presented digitally only

    Thanks,
    Jeff Barnes
    Last edited by CarolinaViper; 11-27-2021 at 09:12 AM.

  19. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by commandomatt View Post
    Interesting how this Jim guy from Colorado talks about the enthusiast making comments are not important and should be removed so no one can see them

    Fact is, we are not members while Viper owners. The ones that could easily be talked into a membership if something of value was offered rather than supporting a few that obviously are taking advantage of this club financially

    So if they truly wanted to increase the membership, we should be a target group they should try to entice....not one that should be silenced because we have an opinion
    Agree. One would think that the Leadership would want to reach out to the Viper community for help in righting the ship. I belong to several forums many of which I contribute to financially. Not 1 requires you to own a car, truck, or motorcycle, to be a member. It is support of the marque that binds a group together. As a Legacy Mamba member, and a potential future Mamba member, I can't believe what I've read on the few threads highlighting the dire straits the Club is in. The lack of disclosure, even tring to "quiet" some with opinions, is unacceptable at all levels. Leadership should "fall on their sword" and get back up and right the ship. I think it was mentioned in the previous thread about the few folks who receive both personal and professional "goodwill" from the magazine. This needs to stop and the financials need to be made viable. The loan is a crutch that will postpone the healing that needs to take place. All efforts should be made to retire the debt ASAP IMO. As a person with Viper in my blood, both from my professional past and in my personal life, I can only hope that the new President gets to lead and not continue to follow the path I sense the Club is on. Since I can't be anything but an "Enthusiast", best of luck.
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  20. #545
    Well over 500 posts. Do you guys feel like you’re talking to yourselves?
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  21. #546
    Enthusiast CarolinaViper's Avatar
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    Well yes sometimes. But one day someone other than Wes will respond. I know they are reading the post because they are commenting on them during the meetings.

  22. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerviper View Post
    Well over 500 posts. Do you guys feel like you’re talking to yourselves?
    Yes, and every page becomes more of a “am I taking crazy pills” read. I’m completely shocked yet not at all at the same time.
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  23. #548
    Regional Membership Director
    VOA Member
    since 2013
    Ontario
    J TNT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Ontario,MCVO,PA,OH
    Posts
    2,541
    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Well yes sometimes. But one day someone other than Wes will respond. I know they are reading the post because they are commenting on them during the meetings.
    The Ship still appears to be drifting .

    And Ontario members have only received 32.2% of their dues back while other regions have received 50 percent back is So Fundamentally WRONG on many Levels .

    And Very telling How something so simple is Not Addressed and Made Right at the National Level !
    As Viper Tony mentioned The BOD needs to act like a BOD for it's members and do the Right thing .
    Last edited by J TNT; 11-27-2021 at 10:51 AM.
    Charter Member ,

  24. #549
    Regional President
    VOA Mamba Member
    since 2014
    Ontario
    Bruce H.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,797
    Quote Originally Posted by J TNT View Post

    And Ontario members have only received 32.2% of their dues back while other regions have received 50 percent back is So Fundamentally WRONG on many Levels .

    And Very telling How something so simple is Not Addressed and Made Right at the National Level !
    As Viper Tony mentioned The BOD needs to act like a BOD for it's members and do the Right thing .
    This easy fix affects a large percentage of overall membership yet has been beyond the ability of leadership and the Board to ask, "Beth, why haven't we fixed this?", followed by "Beth, fix it now...because it's the right thing to do!". That is how we need the Board to function...and I continue to wait until it does.
    VOA 2022 Communication Team Member


    2014 SRT Black TA, 76,000 kms. Last of the 159 built. Thanks to Ralph and Team Viper for an incredible Viper!
    2019 Porsche 911 Turbo S, 22,000 kms.

  25. #550
    Brian, let me just say your efforts are above and beyond

    With that said I’m disappointed in you. A leader does not need to shame others while patting themselves on the back.

    A lot of people contribute time and effort to improve the Viper Community. Some in small ways, some in very visible ways. Some are paying members while others are not. Even non members like me find ways to help. The trick is bringing that all together and making everyone feel welcome.

    I’ve read the deleted messages on the old site. I know how it was modeled, programmed and controlled. I see a lot that is the same, from the very design of the club, the web site, the National staff, club membership, allocation of funds, protecting revenue streams, control, you name it. The reasons are different, the methods are the same, the results are worse. Those old comments long since deleted (well not) painted an awful picture of the lengths people were willing to go. Some of us can feel it and see it happening at an extreme pace.

    I could care less what happens here and most know it, I do care what happens to the people. I’ve become friends with a lot of them. I don't care that they’re here, I just care that they are happy. I don’t have to be politically correct or fear of retaliation. What I do has no effect here, is not controlled here or reliant on anything here. That goes for everywhere else also.

    Y’all need to wake up and be mindful of not only members but future members. This will have lasting effects as the community was mis managed once, now, mis managed twice.

    The Viper (to me) is spectacular, the people, a bit crazy, the community shattered

    Humbly
    Vj


 
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