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  1. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperTony View Post
    What do you all do during board meetings? Do you ask any questions? Do you ask for the financials? When I say "you" it's not directed at you personally but you all... Are board meetings essentially a sewing circle shooting the shit or is actual business discussed? I get that national isn't communicating, which is a problem in and of itself, but WTF does the "board" actually do to foster a climate of non-communication of national officers to happen in the first place?

    This is a really stupid problem to have.
    Ill phrase my statement a little bit better Tony….there have to be board meeting scheduled for us to attend. To the bestbof my knowledge, there were no board meetings from Jan 1 till about September.
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  2. #427
    $18,000 for a President’s meeting is a strong tell of the main underlying problem. Egos. Once again, the glory days are over. Transition the club to the legacy state of the car and the current reality of publications in general. The magazine should only be an Ezine and not involve any kind of great expense at all. Initiate Viper Zoom. Periodic Zoom sessions available to members which have guest presenters on issues relevant to Viper owners. Like JonB on parts. Dick Winkles on drive train issues. John Donato on transmissions. Joe schmo Viper owner on why her or his beast is fabulous with a display of the car and questions capable of being submitted by the chat function. This would be a great and inexpensive benefit to members. And, zoom has a recording feature which would allow the presentation to be replayed by members as needed or when they were available if they weren’t available to see it when it was first aired. This is not rocket science stuff.
    Last edited by Unlimtd; 11-19-2021 at 09:29 PM.

  3. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01sapphirebob View Post
    Ill phrase my statement a little bit better Tony….there have to be board meeting scheduled for us to attend. To the best of my knowledge, there were no board meetings from Jan 1 till about September.
    Understood Bob. The board holds the leadership accountable...and calls for board meetings as the board sees fit...not at the whim of leadership. Is this an actual board with an elected chair, vice chair and does the board utilize Robert's Rules of Order when conducting board meetings? Are agendas created? Should always have a Finance/Budget Review on the agenda at every meeting. Meetings should be recorded, minutes transcribed, kept on record and available to all. It may be time for the board to run like an actual board of directors. I know this is a car club but its still a business and should overseen as such. I report to my board at work no less than quarterly. They hold me accountable not the other way around.
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  4. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperTony View Post
    Understood Bob. The board holds the leadership accountable...and calls for board meetings as the board sees fit...not at the whim of leadership. Is this an actual board with an elected chair, vice chair and does the board utilize Robert's Rules of Order when conducting board meetings? Are agendas created? Should always have a Finance/Budget Review on the agenda at every meeting. Meetings should be recorded, minutes transcribed, kept on record and available to all. It may be time for the board to run like an actual board of directors. I know this is a car club but its still a business and should overseen as such. I report to my board at work no less than quarterly. They hold me accountable not the other way around.
    I don't disagree with any of this.
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  5. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    Brian,

    What you don't realize is that those of us who are capable of quickly determining and addressing the obvious problems aren't going to fight with leadership and other board members that defend the problem. We're not going to wait and wade through endless organizational exercises, creation of committees, basic missteps all along the way, like Maurice on VQ, appointments to them, endless deliberations they they could have, and then wait for them to do their work and formulate some kind of a report to then present to the Board. National is putting in place barriers and obstacles to action. This organizational exercise might look impressive to some, but it's effectively an excuse for inaction that the real leaders in the room are roundly rejecting. Action to date is the equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, and about as effective at plugging the gaping hole in the finances. The one leading this organization has deep experience in precisely the wrong kind of industry to create the nimble org we need now.

    The VOA needs those with the required skills to step up, and for others to get out of the way. This thread is full of this proof going back years.

    You saw how forcefully MCVO, Illinois and I fought against the 2022 renewal plan in the Sept 22nd meeting, the only ones to do that. The board should never, ever, have voted immediately that night, or to include the promise to members to receive the magazine when it should have been painfully obvious that the magazine was the largest problem! Many regions were not represented, and their vote was denied. The VOA did not respect them on a crucial issue that has now prevented the BOD from (fully and effectively) dealing with the largest single expense, the magazine.

    Well, it's the Board that is also the problem, full of those who had become complacent and part of the problem...many of whom likely aren't equipped to be part of the solution. In the real world this failed leadership and BOD would be replaced, not entrusted to dither their way in hopes of finding a solution. It's just pathetic, and those that don't have a clue just don't see it, but are critical of those who they feel aren't willing to step up. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    This whole financial crisis was completely avoidable, even during Covid, if just one person had the sense to do a budget for 2021 back in 2020. Heck, it's in your own bylaws! And not one director had the sense to ask where it was, and to vote on it. And there hadn't been a budget since 2017 apparently.

    Transparency is an illusion when there's an entire culture organized around preventing it.

    And all of this is exactly why I decided after the dreadfully disappointing meeting on Nov 14th to not participate in any further Board meetings going forward.
    Bruce,
    I support so much of what you have said here and at our meetings. I'm sorry that you won't be joining us on Sunday. You are very knowledgeable and you have a very good insight into the problems, facing our Club. I have to admit, I was surprised at the state of our financials. I hope you will reconsider and join us Sunday. We need your voice!

    Sincerely,
    Cheryl

  6. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
    Never said anything about Cheryl not being all over this, didn't even know the email would come from Cheryl. I only stated I never received an email about these issues until yesterday, unless somehow I missed an email...
    The hub of the club is pretty far away from me so emails have been my only port of communication.
    I apologize, Matt. This past Sunday we were, finally, given something to actually see what has been and what is planned for the future of our Club. I did send you an email, too. If you have any questions, please get in touch with me.

    Sincerely,

    Cheryl

  7. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fangs3 View Post
    Bruce,
    I support so much of what you have said here and at our meetings. I'm sorry that you won't be joining us on Sunday. You are very knowledgeable and you have a very good insight into the problems, facing our Club. I have to admit, I was surprised at the state of our financials. I hope you will reconsider and join us Sunday. We need your voice!

    Sincerely,
    Cheryl
    Hi Cheryl, but his voice was ignored, as were some others too. There is a pack formed to make this unopposed. I would like to see questions from other presidents too, but I can't force them to. Ex: Brian mentioned on the call and also posted here about why BOD members aren't taking this by the horns and taking actions and to do our job. Asking for the information [financials, etc] *is* taking actions; that is our job. If that is not being provided, it is a failure at national level, not at a regional level. We do not have any pull over people who chose to ignore the by-laws.

    I too will not be at the next meeting. Our region will be donating 3 pallets and more of turkeys to the needy followed by a cruise and dinner. Since the agenda is to vote on how the funds will be used [did folks forget Beth stating that the membership dues will *not* be used to pay the loan?], without sharing any of the financial history, it will be a waste of my time. AZ can afford to be unrepresented.
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  8. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlknBlu View Post
    Dump the Magazine and NVE for 2 years till we get back on our feet. Please rejoin to keep the club going. what took a few years will not be resolved overnight.

    Long live VOA

    Bruce
    Bruce,
    I'm with you! Our financial recovery would be so much quicker, if the magazine was sidelined for a couple of years!

    I agree with postponing NVE5, too! Unless, we can get the full support of our current members, it will be hard to justify!

    I do believe in our Club and I want it to succeed!

    Cheryl

  9. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loud View Post
    Hi Cheryl, but his voice was ignored, as were some others too. There is a pack formed to make this unopposed. I would like to see questions from other presidents too, but I can't force them to. Ex: Brian mentioned on the call and also posted here about why BOD members aren't taking this by the horns and taking actions and to do our job. Asking for the information [financials, etc] *is* taking actions; that is our job. If that is not being provided, it is a failure at national level, not at a regional level. We do not have any pull over people who chose to ignore the by-laws.

    I too will not be at the next meeting. Our region will be donating 3 pallets and more of turkeys to the needy followed by a cruise and dinner. Since the agenda is to vote on how the funds will be used [did folks forget Beth stating that the membership dues will *not* be used to pay the loan?], without sharing any of the financial history, it will be a waste of my time. AZ can afford to be unrepresented.
    Hi, Anil,
    I agree with everything you just said. Hummm! Then how is the loan to be repaid?!? I missed that memo!

    You, also, have had a good insight to our problems and it's sad that our opinions are not being heard.

    Sorry to hear you won"t be there on Sunday, either, but what a wonderful donation and a great time to get together! Lucky you! Our Snakes are in hibernation! LOL!

    Happy Thanksgiving!
    Cheryl

  10. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fangs3 View Post
    Hi, Anil,
    I agree with everything you just said. Hummm! Then how is the loan to be repaid?!? I missed that memo!

    You, also, have had a good insight to our problems and it's sad that our opinions are not being heard.

    Sorry to hear you won"t be there on Sunday, either, but what a wonderful donation and a great time to get together! Lucky you! Our Snakes are in hibernation! LOL!

    Happy Thanksgiving!
    Cheryl
    Yeah, after 15 years in Chicago, I'm happy we don't have to hibernate here .

    Happy Thanksgiving!
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  11. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fangs3 View Post
    Bruce,
    I'm with you! Our financial recovery would be so much quicker, if the magazine was sidelined for a couple of years!

    I agree with postponing NVE5, too! Unless, we can get the full support of our current members, it will be hard to justify!

    I do believe in our Club and I want it to succeed!

    Cheryl
    Cheryl. If you want this club to survive you need to start calling the other region presidents fast and as a group force National to make the tough decisions. As you can see there several regions that spoke up but Beth and the incoming president are not listening. I listen to the three hour plus presentation listen to Wes nothing new. Mike comments about only 7 people making comments is how he thinks. He didn’t even spend the time to count over 50 members either asked questions or voiced their opinions. Mikes comments showed me and others he doesn’t care what people say.

  12. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Cheryl. If you want this club to survive you need to start calling the other region presidents fast and as a group force National to make the tough decisions. As you can see there several regions that spoke up but Beth and the incoming president are not listening. I listen to the three hour plus presentation listen to Wes nothing new. Mike comments about only 7 people making comments is how he thinks. He didn’t even spend the time to count over 50 members either asked questions or voiced their opinions. Mikes comments showed me and others he doesn’t care what people say.
    Geez, even though, I've been to every meeting, I have gotten so much more insight reading the posts on here! It certainly does seem like our voices are not being heard and there is an agenda, in place, to stop us. I always want to believe the best in people. I will try to reach out to other presidents.

    Thank you!
    Cheryl

  13. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Cheryl. If you want this club to survive you need to start calling the other region presidents fast and as a group force National to make the tough decisions. As you can see there several regions that spoke up but Beth and the incoming president are not listening. I listen to the three hour plus presentation listen to Wes nothing new. Mike comments about only 7 people making comments is how he thinks. He didn’t even spend the time to count over 50 members either asked questions or voiced their opinions. Mikes comments showed me and others he doesn’t care what people say.
    Wow, nothing new... you mean all the information put out there was already available... golly geez beaver, where was it?

    You don't know Mike and you sure do not know me. So, please stop acting like you know the both of us and think you can tell people who we are, what we are about, and what we plan to do. If you had any better ideas then maybe you should have stepped up, but you did nothing. By the way, Mike is currently the National VP and not me, just incase you are still trying to figure that one out based an earlier conversations. When people like you start poking holes in the boat to see how fast you can sink the ship, you become just another part of the problem. I plan to be the guy who patches the holes and tries to keep the ship afloat.

    A democracy works when a group of people can have a discussion, find common ground, agree to a path forward, and work together for the greater good of all the people. Yes, killing the Magazine is a great idea on paper! But wait a minute over 80% of the current renewals say otherwise. So, by your logic, screw the 80% because the 20% know better and we can save the club with 20% of them! Yes, the 2022 membership structure was a rush job....I could not agree more! That is why the 2023 proposal is being presented as food for thought now, not a year from now. I had to spend a lot of time to get you to read through that slide, even highlight things in red, so you could have a little better understanding... the 2023 slide that is in the brief IS NOT THE PLAN! It is a proposal to put something on the table to BEGIN THE DISCUSSION! The slide was setup to show what the club expenses are without a Magazine (read between the lines), $61,250 based on current obligations but requires decisions in 2022 that equate to $13,750. If you assume a very small advertising and mechanizing income of $5k, which is 1/2 of 2021's current figures show, you might only need $56,250 assuming the $13,750 cuts from 2022 - this is the cost of the club without a magazine. I can play the numbers game all day long, but it does not mean squat until we know where we are come 31 Dec 2021 with membership renewals. Then I can draft a better budget for the BOD's approval and suggests more cost cutting measures for consideration. But, I will move you to the column of not renewing, I got that... see, I'z be smart!

    A dictator tells the people what they should think, how they should think, what they should say, and when they should say it. Sounds a lot like what you are all about as opposed to listing what others might have to say - see I can tell people who you are as well without ever meeting you. Not saying I disagree with any of the ideas being presented, there are a lot of us with the same ideas, but the BOD has to looked at the problem together, not scrutinized each other, and maybe we get to the cuts that the club needs. However, you have to have consensus and you have to let the people have a voice in the process or there is no process and that is not a club I would want to belong to. What my team has to do is to put the numbers together in order to show the BOD that everything comes at a cost and every decision has a consequence. Showing them that the current structure for 2022 is not financially sound and that a decisions will have to be made to keep the ship afloat is what has to happen now. I will not beat them into submission, you can do that with your own regional president and I will give you a fly swatter so that you keep swinging away, if that is how you want to proceed.

    Boy, that was a fun game. Maybe, I will stick in another quarter later.

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  14. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viperenvy View Post
    Bruce-

    Why do you think I have been quiet? I know the issue like you.

    See you 1/1/22.
    I'll be counting the days! Please don't let them put anyone with a conflict of interest in charge of their own committee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unlimtd View Post
    $18,000 for a President’s meeting is a strong tell of the main underlying problem. Egos. Once again, the glory days are over. Transition the club to the legacy state of the car and the current reality of publications in general. The magazine should only be an Ezine and not involve any kind of great expense at all. Initiate Viper Zoom. Periodic Zoom sessions available to members which have guest presenters on issues relevant to Viper owners. Like JonB on parts. Dick Winkles on drive train issues. John Donato on transmissions. Joe schmo Viper owner on why her or his beast is fabulous with a display of the car and questions capable of being submitted by the chat function. This would be a great and inexpensive benefit to members. And, zoom has a recording feature which would allow the presentation to be replayed by members as needed or when they were available if they weren’t available to see it when it was first aired. This is not rocket science stuff.
    You get it! We need you on the Board, Bob.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangs3 View Post
    Bruce,
    I support so much of what you have said here and at our meetings. I'm sorry that you won't be joining us on Sunday. You are very knowledgeable and you have a very good insight into the problems, facing our Club. I have to admit, I was surprised at the state of our financials. I hope you will reconsider and join us Sunday. We need your voice!

    Sincerely,
    Cheryl
    Do you really think it would make a difference? I can tell you one thing for sure, Madisson sure doesn't want me there...wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by Loud View Post
    Hi Cheryl, but his voice was ignored, as were some others too. There is a pack formed to make this unopposed. I would like to see questions from other presidents too, but I can't force them to. Ex: Brian mentioned on the call and also posted here about why BOD members aren't taking this by the horns and taking actions and to do our job. Asking for the information [financials, etc] *is* taking actions; that is our job. If that is not being provided, it is a failure at national level, not at a regional level. We do not have any pull over people who chose to ignore the by-laws.

    I too will not be at the next meeting. Our region will be donating 3 pallets and more of turkeys to the needy followed by a cruise and dinner. Since the agenda is to vote on how the funds will be used [did folks forget Beth stating that the membership dues will *not* be used to pay the loan?], without sharing any of the financial history, it will be a waste of my time. AZ can afford to be unrepresented.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fangs3 View Post
    Bruce,
    I'm with you! Our financial recovery would be so much quicker, if the magazine was sidelined for a couple of years!

    I agree with postponing NVE5, too! Unless, we can get the full support of our current members, it will be hard to justify!

    I do believe in our Club and I want it to succeed!

    Cheryl
    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Cheryl. If you want this club to survive you need to start calling the other region presidents fast and as a group force National to make the tough decisions. As you can see there several regions that spoke up but Beth and the incoming president are not listening. I listen to the three hour plus presentation listen to Wes nothing new. Mike comments about only 7 people making comments is how he thinks. He didn’t even spend the time to count over 50 members either asked questions or voiced their opinions. Mikes comments showed me and others he doesn’t care what people say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fangs3 View Post
    Geez, even though, I've been to every meeting, I have gotten so much more insight reading the posts on here! It certainly does seem like our voices are not being heard and there is an agenda, in place, to stop us. I always want to believe the best in people. I will try to reach out to other presidents.

    Thank you!
    Cheryl
    I don't know that agenda might be the right word, but there definitely is a strong resistance to change. After I announced my intention not to participate in future BOD meetings a rather blistering attack was sent to me and the executive from, umm, the bully in the group, and in it he noted that it's mostly all the new presidents that are complaining! Well, I am new, I can clearly see old problems that the long time folks wouldn't even notice any more, and I immediately want to fix it. It doesn't even seem hard.

    Example:

    Sept '21 Okay, so you're telling us we will have debt of $293K by Dec 31. 2021 with the remaining 2 magazines going out, we have no money, and $155K out of $175k loan after paying back Beth. Rather than just saving maybe $15k of the "printing" costs by only printing mags for Mamba members, and thereby pissing off Standard members, why not cut all $90K by being up front with membership who would mostly understand that the BOD made the cut they needed to ensure the VOA can come back healthy. Such an easy sell, but those who like it for their coffee table won the day. And that $90k does not compute because I'm used to seeing numbers closer to $140+K iirc. I want to work with those who are truly prepared to make the tough (and right) decisions.

    And the upcoming Board discussion and maybe a vote whether to choose accrual or cash method of accounting...give me a break! In a financial review meeting full of accountants, why couldn't they just say, guys, the accrual method of accounting is the right method for the VOA to account for revenues received in one year and the expenses in the next, and please stop thinking about changing our year end to Sept 30th because the accrual method addresses all our issues. But it's on the agenda for the presidents to decide. Okay, a little guidance please, accrual it is done, and on to the next issue.

    After 5 BOD meetings over 4 months and feeling like we haven't moved an inch forward, and a huge step backwards by committing to another whole year of magazine costs that were promised and we can't afford, is it any wonder that some of us are unimpressed and discouraged with progress? Just because you think you can cut other costs enough to keep the magazine and be able to balance the budget is not good enough when you have the ability to save a lot more, pay down some debt, and rely less on renewal revenues. We just have to do better, streamline decision making, and attack the problem before time, and the $175K plus renewal funds are gone. The longer we are seen as accomplish nothing, and actually accomplishing nothing, the more members are going to dig their heels in a say I don't need this, I'm out. And I was recently discussing this with another president, the 2022 renewals may be stronger than 2023 if we don't show real progress.

    Those with a small business background are used to making quick decisions like this because they are it for management, they don't have a group to convince, and they are nimble at being able to implement change. They do it regularly and see quick results, and sometimes outperform their larger competitors. We need to adopt this mentality. We talked about a committee to increase sponsorship, and the need to cut costs like insurance way back in July. It will be next year before somebody picks up the phone to discuss insurance cost. So much to do, and it needs leadership to say, this needs to be done and I need someone to raise their hand to do it.

    That's a lot, but you get the idea, and I hope a little of that can-do attitude can be found.
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  15. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    A democracy works when a group of people can have a discussion, find common ground, agree to a path forward, and work together for the greater good of all the people. Yes, killing the Magazine is a great idea on paper! But wait a minute over 80% of the current renewals say otherwise. So, by your logic, screw the 80% because the 20% know better and we can save the club with 20% of them!
    How many people have renewed to date? And by renewals, you mean folks that have renewed for 2022, correct?

    How did you determine that 80% of them think killing the magazine is a bad idea?

    Do the folks that have renewed and think killing the magazine is a bad idea know about the club's current financial woes? Not what's been said in the renewal emails, but the stuff about taking out the loan, the losses due to NVE, etc.? Do they know how much of the budget goes towards the magazine?

    I ask these last questions because outside of this forum, none of this is widely known. The renewal emails from national to date have stated there are problems, but not to any level of detail that would make one think to start asking questions. And, correct me if I'm wrong, that was done by design.
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  16. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    Wow, nothing new... you mean all the information put out there was already available... golly geez beaver, where was it?

    You don't know Mike and you sure do not know me. So, please stop acting like you know the both of us and think you can tell people who we are, what we are about, and what we plan to do. If you had any better ideas then maybe you should have stepped up, but you did nothing. By the way, Mike is currently the National VP and not me, just incase you are still trying to figure that one out based an earlier conversations. When people like you start poking holes in the boat to see how fast you can sink the ship, you become just another part of the problem. I plan to be the guy who patches the holes and tries to keep the ship afloat.

    A democracy works when a group of people can have a discussion, find common ground, agree to a path forward, and work together for the greater good of all the people. Yes, killing the Magazine is a great idea on paper! But wait a minute over 80% of the current renewals say otherwise. So, by your logic, screw the 80% because the 20% know better and we can save the club with 20% of them! Yes, the 2022 membership structure was a rush job....I could not agree more! That is why the 2023 proposal is being presented as food for thought now, not a year from now. I had to spend a lot of time to get you to read through that slide, even highlight things in red, so you could have a little better understanding... the 2023 slide that is in the brief IS NOT THE PLAN! It is a proposal to put something on the table to BEGIN THE DISCUSSION! The slide was setup to show what the club expenses are without a Magazine (read between the lines), $61,250 based on current obligations but requires decisions in 2022 that equate to $13,750. If you assume a very small advertising and mechanizing income of $5k, which is 1/2 of 2021's current figures show, you might only need $56,250 assuming the $13,750 cuts from 2022 - this is the cost of the club without a magazine. I can play the numbers game all day long, but it does not mean squat until we know where we are come 31 Dec 2021 with membership renewals. Then I can draft a better budget for the BOD's approval and suggests more cost cutting measures for consideration. But, I will move you to the column of not renewing, I got that... see, I'z be smart!

    A dictator tells the people what they should think, how they should think, what they should say, and when they should say it. Sounds a lot like what you are all about as opposed to listing what others might have to say - see I can tell people who you are as well without ever meeting you. Not saying I disagree with any of the ideas being presented, there are a lot of us with the same ideas, but the BOD has to looked at the problem together, not scrutinized each other, and maybe we get to the cuts that the club needs. However, you have to have consensus and you have to let the people have a voice in the process or there is no process and that is not a club I would want to belong to. What my team has to do is to put the numbers together in order to show the BOD that everything comes at a cost and every decision has a consequence. Showing them that the current structure for 2022 is not financially sound and that a decisions will have to be made to keep the ship afloat is what has to happen now. I will not beat them into submission, you can do that with your own regional president and I will give you a fly swatter so that you keep swinging away, if that is how you want to proceed.

    Boy, that was a fun game. Maybe, I will stick in another quarter later.

    Picture 1.jpg

    So let’s address some things: Do I know you and the next President personally no, but by you actions I can tell where and how you are going to lead:

    1. You are not willing for change: Only want to keep the VQ don’t want to bring items out to discuss

    2. You and Mike make unsupportive assumptions - Like 80 percent of renewals say they like the VQ and renewed for that reason-how do you know. How many of them know how mismanaged the club has been in. How many know our current financial situation.
    Mike's comments: Only 7 people are complaining on the forum when it was actually over fifty members. Lack of concern for their thought even when you guys agreed their concerns were valid.

    3. Accused me of poking holes to sink the ship...No I and other are trying to save the ship my cutting cost. We are trying to patch the ship, but you will not listen

    4. I told you I like the three tier membership program, it may have a chance with some minor tweaks
    .
    5. Are you are now just responding to the forum because in the last few days you see some major region presidents pulling away from the club.

    6. You state a dictator tells people how to think. I agree, why did you and the review team not do an analysis cost without the Viper Quarterly - You replied was you were not "Directed" to...so who was the dictator(s) who gave that direction. Also, would not discuss the reason why we changed from the accrual to cash basis. Why not discuss the real reason. Joe or Beth did it for a reason, was it voted on in a board meeting and if it was, was there a good explanation or just glossed over. Don't talk about dictatorship with me. I can't even get answers to why we needed a COVID loan, who was the bank that processed it and what justification was given. As you said in the meeting we had a profit in the NVE4 event (which I disagree with) why did we need it.

    7. You said there were a lot you with the same ideas. I'm assuming you are saying those ideas are the same ones that were brought up on the forum. Don't know since you never identified them in your reply here. Because you sure didn't respond to the ideas on the forum nor did you bring them up in the meeting.

    8. You said "my" team had to put the numbers together to show that everything came at a cost. But no analysis was done to show how the club would look without a magazine or not to have a NVE5. And you are a finance guys. Not opened minded but one agenda...how can we keep the magazine. Not let’ us make a hard decisions. Why not send a very informative emails identifying our financial mistakes and say we value the club over the magazine so for a year or two we cannot have a printed copy, which alone will save you what $50K a year in printing cost. Wow, how hard was that to save the club $50K each year. But this wasn't addressed in the meeting to send a letter out for 2022.

    9. Love you GIF, hope you were not referring to me, I tried change the current spending mistakes. Told Maurice in meetings the NVEs were too expensive, told Alex and Beth we couldn't afford the magazine as is. Told them our membership and interest might dwindle with Dodge not making the Viper. The was back in 2017 or so. Guess what our financial troubles started in 2018. Told them to review what happen in the VCA, when Dodge decided to quite producing Vipers after 2010 to gauge results to see what happened with the membership did it decrease or increase. I was deeply engage with Alex on these any other issues. All this, when I also like Maurice had to deal with not one death in the family but two. So again hope the GIF was not for me...

    10. When it was suggested by a region president to address the issues you guys remain silent even though you said you agree with them. Your short-term goal is to not say anything not put out a VOA-wide email identifying our financial shortfalls all this is done in hope that there is enough members that don't know what's going on so they will renew. To sum it up, you, Beth and Mike knew that MAURICE was the chairperson on the VQ committee and did not see a potential conflict of interest. YES I KNOW YOU AND MIKE AND JOE's style of operation. Seen if for the past five years. I and others didn’t see any changes from how the club operated in the last five or so years.
    If you and they really wanted true transparency, there would have been a joint email from the current and next VOA president sent to all members identifying our mistakes, financial situation to include how any why we qualified for a COVID loan, and that we might have to suspend the VQ for a year or two or only have an on-line version. No their egos would not allow that.
    Last edited by CarolinaViper; 11-20-2021 at 08:23 AM.

  17. #442
    Data request. Can one of the people in leader ship who believe that it is necessary to have a regular magazine as opposed to an Ezine please explain why. The overwhelming majority of people today are used to and comfortable with Ezines. Paper is passe. That is why many magazines have discontinued print additions. Ezines are viewable anywhere at any time. Regular magazines are not. If someone does wish to hold paper in their hands while reading, the Ezine could be downloadable and they could print it out on their own glossy paper as they see fit. Also, if the magazine(s) that is/are going to be sent out have not yet been printed; put in an envelope; etc., why couldn’t it/they just be scanned into the system for downloading by the membership with a push email to the membership indicating availability. Please explain. Thank you in advance for considering this request and providing the responsive data.

  18. #443
    Wesley Frasard
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    So let’s address some things: Do I know you and the next President personally no, but by you actions I can tell where and how you are going to lead:

    1. You are not willing for change: Only want to keep the VQ don’t want to bring items out to discuss

    2. You and Mike make unsupportive assumptions - Like 80 percent of renewals say they like the VQ and renewed for that reason-how do you know. How many of them know how mismanaged the club has been in. How many know our current financial situation.
    Mike's comments: Only 7 people are complaining on the forum when it was actually over fifty members. Lack of concern for their thought even when you guys agreed their concerns were valid.

    3. Accused me of poking holes to sink the ship...No I and other are trying to save the ship my cutting cost. We are trying to patch the ship, but you will not listen

    4. I told you I like the three tier membership program, it may have a chance with some minor tweaks
    .
    5. Are you are now just responding to the forum because in the last few days you see some major region presidents pulling away from the club.

    6. You state a dictator tells people how to think. I agree, why did you and the review team not do an analysis cost without the Viper Quarterly - You replied was you were not "Directed" to...so who was the dictator(s) who gave that direction. Also, would not discuss the reason why we changed from the accrual to cash basis. Why not discuss the real reason. Joe or Beth did it for a reason, was it voted on in a board meeting and if it was, was there a good explanation or just glossed over. Don't talk about dictatorship with me. I can't even get answers to why we needed a COVID loan, who was the bank that processed it and what justification was given. As you said in the meeting we had a profit in the NVE4 event (which I disagree with) why did we need it.

    7. You said there were a lot you with the same ideas. I'm assuming you are saying those ideas are the same ones that were brought up on the forum. Don't know since you never identified them in your reply here. Because you sure didn't respond to the ideas on the forum nor did you bring them up in the meeting.

    8. You said "my" team had to put the numbers together to show that everything came at a cost. But no analysis was done to show how the club would look without a magazine or not to have a NVE5. And you are a finance guys. Not opened minded but one agenda...how can we keep the magazine. Not let’ us make a hard decisions. Why not send a very informative emails identifying our financial mistakes and say we value the club over the magazine so for a year or two we cannot have a printed copy, which alone will save you what $50K a year in printing cost. Wow, how hard was that to save the club $50K each year. But this wasn't addressed in the meeting to send a letter out for 2022.

    9. Love you GIF, hope you were not referring to me, I tried change the current spending mistakes. Told Maurice in meetings the NVEs were too expensive, told Alex and Beth we couldn't afford the magazine as is. Told them our membership and interest might dwindle with Dodge not making the Viper. The was back in 2017 or so. Guess what our financial troubles started in 2018. Told them to review what happen in the VCA, when Dodge decided to quite producing Vipers after 2010 to gauge results to see what happened with the membership did it decrease or increase. I was deeply engage with Alex on these any other issues. All this, when I also like Maurice had to deal with not one death in the family but two. So again hope the GIF was not for me...

    10. When it was suggested by a region president to address the issues you guys remain silent even though you said you agree with them. Your short-term goal is to not say anything not put out a VOA-wide email identifying our financial shortfalls all this is done in hope that there is enough members that don't know what's going on so they will renew. To sum it up, you, Beth and Mike knew that MAURICE was the chairperson on the VQ committee and did not see a potential conflict of interest. YES I KNOW YOU AND MIKE AND JOE's style of operation. Seen if for the past five years. I and others didn’t see any changes from how the club operated in the last five or so years.
    If you and they really wanted true transparency, there would have been a joint email from the current and next VOA president sent to all members identifying our mistakes, financial situation to include how any why we qualified for a COVID loan, and that we might have to suspend the VQ for a year or two or only have an on-line version. No their egos would not allow that.
    Man, I suppose you know why I ran for office then... please enlighten us all because I am dying to know. But again, you ran for National Office because you could... oh, sorry your application got lost in the mail! Here is an idea, stand up and make a difference and ask your regional president to put you on one or more of the teams working these items to a real solution. Yes, you will have to work with others who may not agree with your opinions but at least you become part of the process for REAL CHANGE that you keep saying needs to happen. However, I suppose in your eyes, burning the flag and yelling as load as you can is working as well. I am sure when real solutions are developed that align to your opinions you will try to take credit and say it was all your idea when in fact it was the process that brought the problem to light and to a logical conclusion. Putting real change into effect is a real effort that is only accomplished through thought, planning and time which in this organization comes from a group of hardworking volunteers who want to see a real National Viper presence.

    download.jpeg

    The current leadership team is not the new leadership team and 1/1/2022 ends the current President's lead. Brian asked you how long Mike has been the VP for a reason and the reason will become evident soon enough. I did not spend almost 30 years in the Marine Corps to lead from behind or from fighting from a defensive position. As I told mike, when asked, that I had zero interest in a position sitting on my butt and looking uglier then him. I told Mike I was only interest in a position if the club was in trouble and the team could use my expertise. Once I was informed about what was going on, I told Mike that I will not be a mouthpiece once in power as real change needs to occur and that I not care who's feeling get hurt along the way. He agreed that change needs to happen as well. However, we all agreed that I would play party politics until the change officially occurred as well. Providing the information being requested is me playing along but it does not mean I am aligned with anything but change. BTW, the Maurice's appointment as lead lasted about as long as it took for the e-mail to hit people's inboxes before that revision happened, less then 5 minutes before the WTF meter went off on the scale with a whole bunch of people. However, Maurice's expertise will be needed to develop realistic solutions to include option 1) no Viper Magazine, option 2) a Viper Magazine Subscription Service - without VOA managing this as a business, and option 3) a Viper Magazine as a part of membership - VOA continues managing this as a business with options for an e-magazine only and once a year an optional hardcopy at an additional cost with a profit margin attached beyond the cost of just trying to break even, we have a debt that needs to be paid back. So, a survey must be taken that explains what each option means and cost to the membership and their dues and what the majority want in return. If you don't participate in the survey then shame on you.

    Last point, Mike is not going to respond to anyone or say anything until after 11:59pm 31 December 2021. Mike is going to allow the current leader to finish up their presidency while giving him the time and space needed to put the people and tools in place to help him and the BOD make decisions almost immediately upon taking office.

    But keep up the great work that you do and by all means keep telling the person I am because I learn something new about myself everyday from you! Thank goodness I don't have to pay for your services!
    Last edited by viperguy69; 11-20-2021 at 01:21 PM.
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  19. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M View Post
    How many people have renewed to date? And by renewals, you mean folks that have renewed for 2022, correct?

    How did you determine that 80% of them think killing the magazine is a bad idea?

    Do the folks that have renewed and think killing the magazine is a bad idea know about the club's current financial woes? Not what's been said in the renewal emails, but the stuff about taking out the loan, the losses due to NVE, etc.? Do they know how much of the budget goes towards the magazine?

    I ask these last questions because outside of this forum, none of this is widely known. The renewal emails from national to date have stated there are problems, but not to any level of detail that would make one think to start asking questions. And, correct me if I'm wrong, that was done by design.
    80% of renewals so far are claimed to be Mamba, but I interpret it this way...

    -many of those members will know something, but very little of the crisis
    -many who support the VOA as a Mamba member always do it that way to help fund the VOA and their regions more fully. Some will care about the magazine, others won't.
    -many will have been asked by their regions to fully support the VOA, and as a Mamba member, to help save the VOA when it needs their support the most.
    -some renew as Mambas partially for the NVE registration savings, and are always interested in attending NVE's.
    -some renew as Mambas for the recognition of their support in various ways.

    I don't see it as support or a referendum on the magazine, and I think viperguy69 would agree with me on these points.
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  20. #445
    Wesley Frasard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    80% of renewals so far are claimed to be Mamba, but I interpret it this way...

    -many of those members will know something, but very little of the crisis
    -many who support the VOA as a Mamba member always do it that way to help fund the VOA and their regions more fully. Some will care about the magazine, others won't.
    -many will have been asked by their regions to fully support the VOA, and as a Mamba member, to help save the VOA when it needs their support the most.
    -some renew as Mambas partially for the NVE registration savings, and are always interested in attending NVE's.
    -some renew as Mambas for the recognition of their support in various ways.

    I don't see it as support or a referendum on the magazine, and I think viperguy69 would agree with me on these points.
    Yes I would... assumptions are a very fickle and dangerous thing. Knowing is always better then guessing. And a survey, next to calling every member and asking, is the only way to make a sensible way of gauging what a Mamba member wants or is trying to say. I wish there was a subscription offer that had a more direct way to measure interest like: 1) Regular membership $150; 2) $175 Regular membership plus here is $25 to only the debt; 3) Mamba membership $195 - pay the damn debt; 4) Mamba membership $200 - give me my magazine in any form; 4) $250 give me my magazine in hard copy!

    But, those would sill be shitty little assumptions as what do you then do if 65% where Mamba members under option 3 ... do we just offer a refund to the option 4 and 5 members... but that would still cost us 3.74% initial charge and 3.74% refund and then 3.74% recharge for those who then do not get their option. Would they remain after it would be noted that no one really wants the magazine... you could ask if they want the difference but who's going to do that? So, potentially a loss of about 11% in fees on 280 people based on 80% being Mamba at 1000 members base and maybe 50% of the 280 rejoin after learning they are not going to get a magazine. But that would be a method to see what a 100% of the membership was thinking assuming, that word again, 98% understood what all those membership decisions really meant. I bet we would get complaints from a few people, not naming names, that there were too many options for membership this year and another forum feed complaining that they had no idea what they were really signing up for, please tell me that I am wrong!
    Last edited by viperguy69; 11-20-2021 at 10:39 AM.
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  21. #446
    Enthusiast Steve M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    80% of renewals so far are claimed to be Mamba, but I interpret it this way...

    -many of those members will know something, but very little of the crisis
    -many who support the VOA as a Mamba member always do it that way to help fund the VOA and their regions more fully. Some will care about the magazine, others won't.
    -many will have been asked by their regions to fully support the VOA, and as a Mamba member, to help save the VOA when it needs their support the most.
    -some renew as Mambas partially for the NVE registration savings, and are always interested in attending NVE's.
    -some renew as Mambas for the recognition of their support in various ways.

    I don't see it as support or a referendum on the magazine, and I think viperguy69 would agree with me on these points.
    80% of what number? How many people have renewed to date?

    I can do the mental gymnastics to get to where one might believe that a Mamba membership means "a hard copy of the magazine is important to me", but as you already pointed out, there are many ways to interpret why someone might sign up at the higher rate. A quick sanity check might be to see of those Mamba renewals, how many were already Mamba-level members?

    The way that number was thrown out in the original post made it sound like important decisions were being made based off that statistic. That's what prompted me to make that post.
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  22. #447
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    Viperguy69, Wes, our new VP-elect, just touched on the impact of an important point I was about to make.

    None of us have seen the impact that the 2022 VOA Executive Team will be able to make. While the new president is our current VP, our Treasurer and Secretary are unchanged, and Wes joins this group, it must be noted that we have not actually seen what any of them are capable of. In a VOA Board meeting that was called for the presidents to hear directly from the 2022 candidates, they each answered questions that indicated that their responsibilities and input were unusually limited, and a function of the president's leadership style.

    I was furious about the last minute 2022 renewal changes proposed, and the results of the quick vote that passed them. I wanted to know how they could possibly have been a part of those proposed changes. As it turns out, they were not. The plan was developed by the president, with some input from past presidents Maurice and Alex. And the club continues to be run under the current president's strong control.

    I do hold out hope that real change, the right kind of change, and the kind of fundamental change that is needed will come about. I also hold out hope that those presidents who aren't comfortable with change, and the changes that are desperately needed, and that I hope will be proposed, will step aside and let others step in, not just to committees, but as VOA Board members who have a vote. Perhaps non-president regional directors could take over this role on the VOA Board, and I hope that can be accommodated. The needs of the VOA Board members are different than the needs on regional Boards, and the right person to do one is not necessarily the right person to do the other. Many region directors could offer the needed input in place of their president.

    I look forward to seeing what the 2022 leadership team unleashed looks like. I have always supported a strong and durable VOA, and as a region member since 2014 I expected that leadership was providing that. Since July when I joined the Board, I have been disappointed over and over. Where the standard response is for those who are critical of leadership to step up to fix it, leadership has unfortunately so far demonstrated that change will be a battle within the Board. I signed up to fix the problem, not battle with those that contributed to it.

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  23. #448
    Enthusiast Steve M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    Yes I would... assumptions are a very fickle and dangerous thing. Knowing is always better then guessing. And a survey, next to calling every member and asking, is the only way to make a sensible way of gauging what a Mamba member wants or is trying to say. I wish there was a subscription offer that had a more direct way to measure interest like: 1) Regular membership $150; 2) $175 Regular membership plus here is $25 to only the debt; 3) Mamba membership $195 - pay the damn debt; 4) Mamba membership $200 - give me my magazine in any form; 4) $250 give me my magazine in hard copy!

    But, those would sill be shitty little assumptions as what do you then do if 65% where Mamba members under option 3 ... do we just offer a refund to the option 4 and 5 members... but that would still cost us 3.74% initial charge and 3.74% refund and then 3.74% recharge for those who then do not get their option. Would they remain after it would be noted that no one really wants the magazine... you could ask if they want the difference but who's going to do that? So, potentially a loss of about 11% in fees on 280 people based on 80% being Mamba at 1000 members base and maybe 50% of the 280 rejoin after learning they are not going to get a magazine. But that would be a method to see what a 100% of the membership was thinking assuming, that word again, 98% understood what all those membership decisions really meant. I bet we would get complaints from a few people, not naming names, that there were too many options for membership this year and another forum feed complaining that they had no idea what they were really signing up for, please tell me that I am wrong!
    I understand what you are saying...took me a couple times of reading it, but I got there.

    I also understand that the cat is out of the bag at this point - decisions were made as to the renewal amounts and what each tier of membership buys you, but that's part of my problem here. Those decisions appear to have been made in a vacuum with little regard for facts/data or external inputs. When pressed, the people that made those decisions realized they couldn't even answer some basic financial questions, but at that point, it was too late. One "audit" later, and the greater audience still has no idea what's going on behind the scenes. I realize that it takes time to put the pieces of the puzzle together to tell the full story, but this should have never happened in the first place. That's my point, and I'm not seeing anything that has convinced me that the situation is improving.
    Last edited by Steve M; 11-20-2021 at 11:05 AM.
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  24. #449
    Kurt Balhorn
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    I admit that I love having the physical paper VQ magazine BUT I also understand the need for the Club to remain financially stable. I am completely willing to accept an electronic copy if it means getting us back on our feet quickly. I also believe that if the membership understood our situation the majority would vote to hold off on the paper copy. To be clear this is nothing against Maurice and the fantastic work he has done since VQ's inception, it is being financially responsible with the Club's money. No one could have predicted what happened with the pandemic, so drastic changes are warranted. It's no different than with your own finances given the past 18 months. Would I love a GEN V Viper in my garage... hell yes! But, that is not reality for me now.

    With that said, we should still do our best to retain NVE5 with a revised budget and participant fees (including track and non-track entries). Why? This is the main perk of being part of a national club that allows many of us to all come together and celebrate the historic Vipers we own, share stories and learn from each other. If the situation warrants that we can't do either, then we need to do the right thing and cancel both until we can get back on our feet. I look forward to hearing what the new leadership team has in store for us after January 1st.

    TO THE REGIONAL PRESIDENTS: You are the voice of the membership not on these calls! I ask that you stay involved and voice your opinion. Do not let a few people stop you from being heard. Change will come and you need to be the ones to make the call.
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  25. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce H. View Post
    Brian,

    What you don't realize is that those of us who are capable of quickly determining and addressing the obvious problems aren't going to fight with leadership and other board members that defend the problem. We're not going to wait and wade through endless organizational exercises, creation of committees, basic missteps all along the way, like Maurice on VQ, appointments to them, endless deliberations they they could have, and then wait for them to do their work and formulate some kind of a report to then present to the Board. National is putting in place barriers and obstacles to action. This organizational exercise might look impressive to some, but it's effectively an excuse for inaction that the real leaders in the room are roundly rejecting. Action to date is the equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, and about as effective at plugging the gaping hole in the finances. The one leading this organization has deep experience in precisely the wrong kind of industry to create the nimble org we need now.

    The VOA needs those with the required skills to step up, and for others to get out of the way. This thread is full of this proof going back years.

    You saw how forcefully MCVO, Illinois and I fought against the 2022 renewal plan in the Sept 22nd meeting, the only ones to do that. The board should never, ever, have voted immediately that night, or to include the promise to members to receive the magazine when it should have been painfully obvious that the magazine was the largest problem! Many regions were not represented, and their vote was denied. The VOA did not respect them on a crucial issue that has now prevented the BOD from (fully and effectively) dealing with the largest single expense, the magazine.

    Well, it's the Board that is also the problem, full of those who had become complacent and part of the problem...many of whom likely aren't equipped to be part of the solution. In the real world this failed leadership and BOD would be replaced, not entrusted to dither their way in hopes of finding a solution. It's just pathetic, and those that don't have a clue just don't see it, but are critical of those who they feel aren't willing to step up. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    This whole financial crisis was completely avoidable, even during Covid, if just one person had the sense to do a budget for 2021 back in 2020. Heck, it's in your own bylaws! And not one director had the sense to ask where it was, and to vote on it. And there hadn't been a budget since 2017 apparently.

    Transparency is an illusion when there's an entire culture organized around preventing it.

    And all of this is exactly why I decided after the dreadfully disappointing meeting on Nov 14th to not participate in any further Board meetings going forward.

    This and your other response detailing some of the issues with the board is much appreciated. This board is symbolic in nature only. This board does not operate as a board of directors overseeing the leadership team and does not operate utilizing checks and balances. While I understand fingers are pointing to the leadership team (rightfully so) you are one of the few board members taking responsibility and identifying root cause. Where are the rest of the board members that sat by in a complacent manner allowing the club to run on auto-pilot? I'm sorry but when I hear board members tell me "National wasn't communicating, I didn't know" that's an embarrassment.

    And if I read these posts correctly we now have an incoming VP, Ranger Rick, that was part of the problem attacking members with questions?

    The board is THE problem. The board needs to operate as a true board of directors. The fact that bylaws are not being adhered to without consequence is disturbing.


    • The board needs have a chair and vice char as well as a board secretary who are NOT comprised of the national officers but rather board directors.
    • Election of the chair, vice chair, secretary should occur every 2 years as vacancies occur in these roles.
    • The board should be operating under Robert's Rules of Order parliamentary procedure.
    • The board chair conducts the meeting.
    • Roll call for quorum at each meeting. Without a quorum no meeting occurs.
    • Attendance is taken. (This helps regional members know if their president is engaged or not).
    • RRO's rule for votes...delineate 2/3rds majority vote vs. simple majority for vote types.
    • Board meeting agendas are posted in advance of meetings for the members to review.
    • Meetings are recorded and minutes transcribed and made available to any member that requests them.
    • Board meeting should be open to viewing by the membership. Zoom/Teams/Google Meet etc. allow for virtual viewing.
    • Board can decided if it wants a "Member Comment or Audience" agenda item in its' meetings to entertain questions from the audience.
    • The national officers "sit" with the board during meetings.
    • The national officers reports to the board.
    • Committees (Budget, Planning, etc.) and other special committees are not formed via board procedures not at the whim of the national leadership.


    If the board is operating in a haphazard manner we'll always have situations like this occur time and again. Structure is needed. I am chairman of a few boards and I report to my board of directors at my company. This is not complicated to implement but requires structure and discipline (good bylaws) in order to operate effectively.

    I'd like to see the plan for how the board will operate differently moving forward. I understand this will take time and stabilizing the VOA is priority but before I renew membership I need confidence that we have a true board that can demonstrate its capable of performing its' duty of governing the the VOA's policies and operations.

    Bruce I hope you and others will stay on to help although I know its a frustrating situation. Thank you for sharing your insights and willingness to continue helping.
    Last edited by ViperTony; 11-20-2021 at 11:28 AM.
    2016 ACR "ACR Steve White" by Woodhouse
    2001 RT/10 Greg Good Heads+Built Engine+Cam+Ported Intake and other goodies


 
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