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  1. #376
    Enthusiast Fatboy 18's Avatar
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    Just received another reminder email to Join the Club.

    Also a email from Beth on committees,

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboy 18 View Post
    Just received another reminder email to Join the Club.

    Also a email from Beth on committees,
    Isn't it unreal how similar this is/was to the demise of VCA?

  3. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by snopro440 View Post
    I don't understand why any of the regional presidents would withhold any information about this. Everything I get, I send out to my region to be as transparent as possible.
    A very transparent Regional Prez. Thank you for everything Troy.

    I have already made up my mind I am giving my $55 to my region next year and $0 to National.

    Partially because of the mess National created.

    Mostly because of the lack of transparency after the mess came to light. The utter incompetency of National is inexcusable.

    I honestly hope all of you give serious thought about giving National a dime of your money.
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  4. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by 13COBRA View Post
    Isn't it unreal how similar this is/was to the demise of VCA?
    Someone is going to have to show me some incredibly dirty laundry before I’m willing to equate this to the VCA debacle. I fought some of those wars with Jon who they tried unsuccessfully to burn at the stake. I will say that I’m seeing abject stupidity and a juvenile lack of judgement in all of this. To me it seems like a wholly unnecessary major offensive to save one person, or maybe a couple who may have been spending too long at the club trough.
    Last edited by Drummerviper; 11-18-2021 at 03:57 PM.
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  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerviper View Post
    Someone is going to have to show me some incredibly dirty laundry before I’m willing to equate this to the VCA debacle. I fought some of those wars with Jon who they tried unsuccessfully to burn at the stake. I will say that I’m seeing abject stupidity and a juvenile lack of judgement in all of this. To me it seems like a wholly unnecessary major offensive to save one person, or making a couple who may have been spending too long at the club trough.
    I'm not saying we have some backdoor liars/cheaters/etc like the Marshalls were...

    I'm 100% saying that there is money being pushed in directions to people that shouldn't be receiving it.

    My original comment you quoted is referencing the lack of communication from National though.

  6. #381
    Did her Email start with a HOWDY viper owners , like nothing is going on...Maybe they should dump the magazine chair as he is obviously in this for profit.. Just a start ... what a S$%T show

  7. #382
    Enthusiast Sniper's Avatar
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    I was in the Kansas City Viper Club years ago when Chris Marshall was there. I keep hearing his name but have never heard what happened…???

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
    I was in the Kansas City Viper Club years ago when Chris Marshall was there. I keep hearing his name but have never heard what happened…???
    Please go towards the beginning of this thread and look for the post I shared with a link to Viper Alley.

    I'm on my phone or I'd do it.

    EDIT: https://www.viperalley.com/threads/v...f-doom.124857/
    Last edited by 13COBRA; 11-18-2021 at 06:27 PM.

  9. #384
    Enthusiast Sniper's Avatar
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    Thanks for that link. That is one big read to go through.
    Can anyone summarize what happened?

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperSRT View Post
    Not in Michigan either. The silence is deafening.
    Haven't you gotten the club emails on this? I have been on at least 4 special board meetings lasting 2 to 2.5 hours each discussing what has been disclosed at the VOA President's meetings. As soon as we have all the info from VOA another email will be sent with a recommendation to the MCVO membership. We cannot in good faith do that with only some of the data. You as an engineer should appreciate that. Believe me YOUR MCVO board is not on our dead ass as it sounds like from your post.

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by mah48092 View Post
    Haven't you gotten the club emails on this? I have been on at least 4 special board meetings lasting 2 to 2.5 hours each discussing what has been disclosed at the VOA President's meetings. As soon as we have all the info from VOA another email will be sent with a recommendation to the MCVO membership. We cannot in good faith do that with only some of the data. You as an engineer should appreciate that. Believe me YOUR MCVO board is not on our dead ass as it sounds like from your post.
    Thanks for explaining your efforts. But no, I have not received multiple emails from MCVO on this. More like one, on October 12, telling us there was an issue and to hold off renewals until further notice which is expected by mid November. Maybe I am no longer on the distribution list for emails or maybe you are mistaken that more have been sent. The only other thing I received by MCVO was tonight indicating you were meeting tonight. Note also the tone of your note is telling, but if you read through this thread you would observe some regions have been more transparent with their members, and some silent like MCVO. Silence does not communicate activity behind the scenes.

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by mah48092 View Post
    Haven't you gotten the club emails on this? I have been on at least 4 special board meetings lasting 2 to 2.5 hours each discussing what has been disclosed at the VOA President's meetings. As soon as we have all the info from VOA another email will be sent with a recommendation to the MCVO membership. We cannot in good faith do that with only some of the data. You as an engineer should appreciate that. Believe me YOUR MCVO board is not on our dead ass as it sounds like from your post.

    This. Ive actually seen emails from MVCO talking about the situation.
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  13. #388
    Enthusiast CarolinaViper's Avatar
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    This is a quick review of the 3 hour and 20 minutes zoom meeting:
    Wes Frasard did the narrating and lead most of the discussions. They went over the 18 page slide presentation and then had a Q&A afterwards.

    On a side note: Wes and I had a good discussion on FB last night and clarified an item where I wrong – so yes we all can make mistakes. It was inreference to the cost of the magazine in the three tier suggested membership plans, When I asked him why the review team did not have a financial analysis with the club cutting out the VQ magazine out of the budget, he stated they were not directed to look at that. So much for an independent review. Apparently, someone directed them what to look at. That’s one reason our current treasurer should not have been on the team.

    1. As a past region president as well as some current region president it was new to them that the club was not meant to operate on member dues alone. That profits from NVE and other sources were meant to keep dues down.

    I remember Alex who was the National President at the time telling me just the opposite During NVE-3 process. I told him that the registration fees were not high enough. He stated the goal was not to make a profit but to come close to breaking even without going in the hole.

    This is a recent quote from Alex on the forum: NVE events are a break-even proposition within themselves, but the auctions and store sales that come along with NVE can generate significant revenue - 60K or more. For the Miami NVE, the VOA issued over 100k in refunds on registrations. No one to blame for that, just the circumstances of the world in 2020-21. But the net result was, even after really significant auction and store sales, Miami did not generate rainy-day-funds like NoLa or Vegas.

    2. Wes mentioned that the club made a profit during NVE-4, but he said he really couldn’t tell how much because he came up with different figures each time he figured it out. $6K one time, S9K, one time, $12K one time and finally $18K profit. He said he wanted to compare apples to apples not apples to oranges. He even took the $18K presidents meeting expense out of NVE-4, because he said it was not used as an expense in the last NVEs.

    Beth’s NVE-4 P&L showed all the income and all the expenses including the $18K expense for the presidents meeting. After providing this to my accountant it showed a loss of more than $24K. Wes, it’s easy to figure out. Add the money coming in vs the money going out simple math. Don’t try to reconcile against other NVEs. Just use simple math to see what NVE4 did…results from Beth show a loss. I am assuming that’s why we got the COVID loan. If we made profits would not have needed it.

    3. Wes said the main programs were carried over by the same people who did them in the VCA. Not entirely true. The printer for the VQ was changed and the expense for printing them went sky high with the new company. If I’m wrong on the cost comparison of the years show us.

    4. Never in the proposal or during the review of the slides did National or the review panel give the option of terminating the magazine. Three or four regional presidents spoke against the VQ as it currently is. They suggested modifying it or getting rid of it. One president spoke up for keeping it. No immediate follow-up to those concerns.

    Twice, WES stated that he nor any of the members doing the review talked to Maurice about having a reduction in fees. Beth apparently had talked to Maurice at some time because, she said Maurice said he could make a digital copy and ensure that it could not be copied or downloaded.

    5. Concerning the store Wes stated the store could lose up to nine percent of the purchase price if a person returned the item and purchased another when using a credit card. Stating that would wipe out their profit margin. My response to this is why does the club only have a 10 percent mark-up margin, kind of dumb.

    6. Never mentioned why the club changed from an accrual to a cash based system, but wants the region presidents to vote on which system to use in the future.

    7. One of the region presidents suggested that with the new or current National officers needs to answer the questions on the forum. Amazing that they all agreed that the questions were valid. Beth, related she tried to answer them but it got shoved back in her face. She never answer my questions in full. She chose which ones she wanted to answer which was only 2-3, and didn’t answer the tough ones.

    One region president (Kuchamic) said that there were only around seven people on the forum making comments and that two of them were from his region. He called these people on the forum “Word Warriors”. A review of the comments on the threads showed a total 53 people (maybe five who were not members) were asking questions or voiced concerns. A lot more than Kuchamic related to. That’s the problem with the current leadership, they don’t want to listen.

    9. According to the Treasurer, the $175K COVID loan was secured to provide financial flexibility and avoid using 2022 member dues to pay remaining bills from 2021. So, according to Wes, we made a profit in NVE4, so when did COVID cause a financial hardship to the club.

    I saved the best for last, the team decided that there should be committees formed to review and make recommendations on several items. Some of the committees are: NVE5 planning, VOA Store committee, Insurance committee, Viper Quarterly committee, and several more. Guess who chairs the Viper Quarterly committee – Maurice does.

    So as those have said the review will not show transparency you were right for the following reasons

    1. The review board was apparently was given directions – As there was no analysis done of the club’s financial situation without the magazine.
    2. Wes tried several times to make NVE4 show a profit Simple math - add money coming in subtract money going out. Not hard.
    3. The one region officer who recommend someone from National answer the questions was shot down by Kuchamic who didn’t know what he was talking about when he said there was only seven talking about it in the forum.
    4. Then having Maurice chair the Viper Quarterly Magazine, when he is the person who profits from it.

    I would not be surprised due to the above four items that to several region presidents may resign. This behavior is the main reason I did not choose to continue as our region president for another two years

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    This is a quick review of the 3 hour and 20 minutes zoom meeting:
    Wes Frasard did the narrating and lead most of the discussions. They went over the 18 page slide presentation and then had a Q&A afterwards.

    On a side note: Wes and I had a good discussion on FB last night and clarified an item where I wrong – so yes we all can make mistakes. It was inreference to the cost of the magazine in the three tier suggested membership plans, When I asked him why the review team did not have a financial analysis with the club cutting out the VQ magazine out of the budget, he stated they were not directed to look at that. So much for an independent review. Apparently, someone directed them what to look at. That’s one reason our current treasurer should not have been on the team.

    1. As a past region president as well as some current region president it was new to them that the club was not meant to operate on member dues alone. That profits from NVE and other sources were meant to keep dues down.

    I remember Alex who was the National President at the time telling me just the opposite During NVE-3 process. I told him that the registration fees were not high enough. He stated the goal was not to make a profit but to come close to breaking even without going in the hole.

    This is a recent quote from Alex on the forum: NVE events are a break-even proposition within themselves, but the auctions and store sales that come along with NVE can generate significant revenue - 60K or more. For the Miami NVE, the VOA issued over 100k in refunds on registrations. No one to blame for that, just the circumstances of the world in 2020-21. But the net result was, even after really significant auction and store sales, Miami did not generate rainy-day-funds like NoLa or Vegas.

    2. Wes mentioned that the club made a profit during NVE-4, but he said he really couldn’t tell how much because he came up with different figures each time he figured it out. $6K one time, S9K, one time, $12K one time and finally $18K profit. He said he wanted to compare apples to apples not apples to oranges. He even took the $18K presidents meeting expense out of NVE-4, because he said it was not used as an expense in the last NVEs.

    Beth’s NVE-4 P&L showed all the income and all the expenses including the $18K expense for the presidents meeting. After providing this to my accountant it showed a loss of more than $24K. Wes, it’s easy to figure out. Add the money coming in vs the money going out simple math. Don’t try to reconcile against other NVEs. Just use simple math to see what NVE4 did…results from Beth show a loss. I am assuming that’s why we got the COVID loan. If we made profits would not have needed it.

    3. Wes said the main programs were carried over by the same people who did them in the VCA. Not entirely true. The printer for the VQ was changed and the expense for printing them went sky high with the new company. If I’m wrong on the cost comparison of the years show us.

    4. Never in the proposal or during the review of the slides did National or the review panel give the option of terminating the magazine. Three or four regional presidents spoke against the VQ as it currently is. They suggested modifying it or getting rid of it. One president spoke up for keeping it. No immediate follow-up to those concerns.

    Twice, WES stated that he nor any of the members doing the review talked to Maurice about having a reduction in fees. Beth apparently had talked to Maurice at some time because, she said Maurice said he could make a digital copy and ensure that it could not be copied or downloaded.

    5. Concerning the store Wes stated the store could lose up to nine percent of the purchase price if a person returned the item and purchased another when using a credit card. Stating that would wipe out their profit margin. My response to this is why does the club only have a 10 percent mark-up margin, kind of dumb.

    6. Never mentioned why the club changed from an accrual to a cash based system, but wants the region presidents to vote on which system to use in the future.

    7. One of the region presidents suggested that with the new or current National officers needs to answer the questions on the forum. Amazing that they all agreed that the questions were valid. Beth, related she tried to answer them but it got shoved back in her face. She never answer my questions in full. She chose which ones she wanted to answer which was only 2-3, and didn’t answer the tough ones.

    One region president (Kuchamic) said that there were only around seven people on the forum making comments and that two of them were from his region. He called these people on the forum “Word Warriors”. A review of the comments on the threads showed a total 53 people (maybe five who were not members) were asking questions or voiced concerns. A lot more than Kuchamic related to. That’s the problem with the current leadership, they don’t want to listen.

    9. According to the Treasurer, the $175K COVID loan was secured to provide financial flexibility and avoid using 2022 member dues to pay remaining bills from 2021. So, according to Wes, we made a profit in NVE4, so when did COVID cause a financial hardship to the club.

    I saved the best for last, the team decided that there should be committees formed to review and make recommendations on several items. Some of the committees are: NVE5 planning, VOA Store committee, Insurance committee, Viper Quarterly committee, and several more. Guess who chairs the Viper Quarterly committee – Maurice does.

    So as those have said the review will not show transparency you were right for the following reasons

    1. The review board was apparently was given directions – As there was no analysis done of the club’s financial situation without the magazine.
    2. Wes tried several times to make NVE4 show a profit Simple math - add money coming in subtract money going out. Not hard.
    3. The one region officer who recommend someone from National answer the questions was shot down by Kuchamic who didn’t know what he was talking about when he said there was only seven talking about it in the forum.
    4. Then having Maurice chair the Viper Quarterly Magazine, when he is the person who profits from it.

    I would not be surprised due to the above four items that to several region presidents may resign. This behavior is the main reason I did not choose to continue as our region president for another two years
    WOW.

    The most upsetting things to pull from that are:
    1.) Not looking at a VOA plan without the magazine.
    2.) Maurice being the chair for the magazine committee; whoever can argue that's not a conflict of interest is a complete idiot.
    3.) Kuchamic (whoever he is) suggesting that there are only a couple of people upset about the way the VOA is headed.

    Like most organizations, only about 25% of the leaders (i.e. regional Presidents) give a shit, or have the time to actually give a shit.

    With all of this coming to light, it'll be interesting to see how many people re-up their memberships.

    It would be lights out for the VOA if an UNBIASED source put out a mass email to the complete membership outlining the happenings of the current National administration and the finances of the club.

  15. #390
    Enthusiast Fatboy 18's Avatar
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    Great post. I too will no longer be supporting the National Board

  16. #391
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    We can't make this up even if we tried.
    A few words of CAUTION to those who think
    a VIPER looks MEAN, ARROGANT and HOSTILE...
    CUT OUT THE FLATTERY!

  17. #392
    my overall take away after all that reading (thank you for that condensed version)


    The membership has had to piece meal all this info together after repeated asking of questions with no response from National

    The story doesn't look good. And we haven't uncovered the whole thing.

    So that tells me, based on National silence, that the whole thing is actually worse than we are seeing/discussing.


    The unfortunate reality is that very few of the membership is actually paying attention to this. And unless a mass unbiased email did go out, the status quo will never change. It will die a slow death.
    Dave
    98 Viper GTS

  18. #393
    Enthusiast Sniper's Avatar
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    I received email…

  19. #394
    Regional President
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01sapphirebob View Post
    This. Ive actually seen emails from MVCO talking about the situation.
    This is weird, Bob, the MVCO members are reporting not having received any communication, but you have.

    ViperSRT, any chance it is in your spam folder?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
    I received email…
    You've got mail!
    A few words of CAUTION to those who think
    a VIPER looks MEAN, ARROGANT and HOSTILE...
    CUT OUT THE FLATTERY!

  20. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loud View Post
    This is weird, Bob, the MVCO members are reporting not having received any communication, but you have.

    ViperSRT, any chance it is in your spam folder?
    Nope, I confirmed there has been only the one email on Oct 12. They are working on one now expected to be sent out later this weekend.

    I do enjoy being called a liar by someone from another region though who is apparently without a clue.

  21. #396
    Regional Treasurer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
    Nothing from my region.
    I almost renewed until I seen this thread.
    Not true, Cheryl has been all over this and attended several of the meetings. I have been getting regular emails from her.

    Bruce
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  22. #397
    Regional Treasurer
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    Dump the Magazine and NVE for 2 years till we get back on our feet. Please rejoin to keep the club going. what took a few years will not be resolved overnight.

    Long live VOA

    Bruce
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  23. #398
    Regional President
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlknBlu View Post
    Dump the Magazine and NVE for 2 years till we get back on our feet. Please rejoin to keep the club going. what took a few years will not be resolved overnight.

    Long live VOA

    Bruce
    Agree. But if the required dumping doesn't occur right away, it will only get worse.
    A few words of CAUTION to those who think
    a VIPER looks MEAN, ARROGANT and HOSTILE...
    CUT OUT THE FLATTERY!

  24. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by BlknBlu View Post
    Dump the Magazine and NVE for 2 years till we get back on our feet. Please rejoin to keep the club going. what took a few years will not be resolved overnight.

    Long live VOA

    Bruce
    I will rejoin only if they can come up with a plan that actually makes sense. right now i dont see it. Im more than willing to invest in the future, but I am not one to throw good money after bad.
    Dave
    98 Viper GTS

  25. #400
    Enthusiast CarolinaViper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlknBlu View Post
    Dump the Magazine and NVE for 2 years till we get back on our feet. Please rejoin to keep the club going. what took a few years will not be resolved overnight.

    Long live VOA

    Bruce
    Great Idea, but do you really think it will happen.


 
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