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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperSRT View Post
    Sure, that makes it much better. Not! What the heck did $18,000 buy?
    What would be nice to see is the names of all the region presidents, national officers, other national core directors and past VOA presidents names who attended this event. They should be made public as, we the mebers who did not attend are now paying for it.

  2. #602
    Regional President
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    What would be nice to see is the names of all the region presidents, national officers, other national core directors and past VOA presidents names who attended this event. They should be made public as, we the mebers who did not attend are now paying for it.
    I believe the purpose of these NVE meetings every 2 years is for the region presidents to review the selected NVE location's facilities, make decisions about that NVE, to have the opportunity for presidents to meet their VOA Board counterparts, go over future NVE locations suggested, and take care of other VOA business. I'm sure there is a social aspect also, but each president is at least responsible for their own travel costs from all over the country, so it's definitely not free to go to these meetings, and I'm sure some regions reimburse their presidents travel costs.

    If these meeting serve legitimate NVE purpose then the costs would be legitimate as well. This is my first year on the VOA Board and I can tell you that to add real value consumes an enormous of personal volunteered hours, and those that do the work provide value to all members. I'd still like to know how this expense breaks down to ensure it is reasonable.
    2014 SRT Black TA, 69,000 kms. Last of the 159 built. Thanks to Ralph and Team Viper for an incredible Viper!
    2019 Porsche 911 Turbo S, 19,000 kms.

  3. #603
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    I respectfully disagree with you on this one. Viper‘s are not inexpensive cars to buy new or used; and, or maintain. I think that those who volunteer for leadership positions in an exempt Subsection 501(c)(7) club ( VOA headquarters and most regions)) should pay their own way except, possibly, transportation for site inspection and selection. In 22 years I have never run into a viper owner who, based on a reasonable and objective standard, would be considered a low income individual. As far as site selection goes, generally, the site being inspected comps or discounts at least one night to the persons inspecting the site. With today’s technology being what it is, it certainly shouldn’t involve any significant part of the leadership. All it really requires is one person or one person and his or her significant other. The designated site inspector can go to the location; video it with their phone and send out the video to the other leaders for comment. The bottom line is that the money paid in as dues is money being held pursuant to a fiduciary standard by the leadership. While the value of a volunteer’s time should certainly be greatly appreciated and respected, I do not think it should play into this issue. No one is forcing the volunteer to donate her or his time. Thus, the leadership should always err on the side of caution when making any decision that utilizes funds to benefit themselves. The default position should be do not do it.

    One last observation. There is always going to be the possibility of a rainy day and leadership with vision plans for it ahead of time by constantly keeping their eye on the numbers.
    Last edited by Unlimtd; 23 Hours Ago at 05:42 PM.

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperTony View Post
    The board is THE problem. The board needs to operate as a true board of directors. The fact that bylaws are not being adhered to without consequence is disturbing.


    • The board needs have a chair and vice char as well as a board secretary who are NOT comprised of the national officers but rather board directors.
    • Election of the chair, vice chair, secretary should occur every 2 years as vacancies occur in these roles.
    • The board should be operating under Robert's Rules of Order parliamentary procedure.
    • The board chair conducts the meeting.
    • Roll call for quorum at each meeting. Without a quorum no meeting occurs.
    • Attendance is taken. (This helps regional members know if their president is engaged or not).
    • RRO's rule for votes...delineate 2/3rds majority vote vs. simple majority for vote types.
    • Board meeting agendas are posted in advance of meetings for the members to review.
    • Meetings are recorded and minutes transcribed and made available to any member that requests them.
    • Board meeting should be open to viewing by the membership. Zoom/Teams/Google Meet etc. allow for virtual viewing.
    • Board can decided if it wants a "Member Comment or Audience" agenda item in its' meetings to entertain questions from the audience.
    • The national officers "sit" with the board during meetings.
    • The national officers reports to the board.
    • Committees (Budget, Planning, etc.) and other special committees are not formed via board procedures not at the whim of the national leadership.
    • Term limits for board members


    If the board is operating in a haphazard manner we'll always have situations like this occur time and again. Structure is needed. I am chairman of a few boards and I report to my board of directors at my company. This is not complicated to implement but requires structure and discipline (good bylaws) in order to operate effectively.

    I'd like to see the plan for how the board will operate differently moving forward. I understand this will take time and stabilizing the VOA is priority but before I renew membership I need confidence that we have a true board that can demonstrate its capable of performing its' duty of governing the the VOA's policies and operations.

    Bruce I hope you and others will stay on to help although I know its a frustrating situation. Thank you for sharing your insights and willingness to continue helping.
    Bump.

    So far no current or new national officer has acknowledged the above...

    When we formed the VOA the initial bylaws were drafted in 2013 but back then we were all actively, if not overactive, participating to ensure the board was functioning 100%. But it's time to take another look at the role of the board and enhance it, per some of the recommendations above to ensure situations like this don't materialize again in the future. However, I am concerned that anything will change in this regard considering that some of the folks that allowed this situation to happen serve on the current board, and if not mistaken, are elected as new national leaders. If the allegations are true that we have both directors and new incoming national leaders not willing to listen to membership, let alone minimizing the comments here...what's going actually going to change?!?

    We have a Bylaws Director? What does this person do regarding the bylaws? I couldn't find a description for this appointed role in the bylaws. If the role is to ensure bylaws are being followed well that failed miserably.

    I would hope that given my history in helping this club get started, moving my region over, volunteerism, etc. would be appreciated with the leadership as someone that's not a complainer or a word jockey...but someone that sincerely has ideas to help, and would like to help. When I walked away in 2015 everything was fine both nationally and in my region. Discouraged to see where we are but would like to see our club survive.

    So if anyone on the board/leadership wants to chat about the above suggestions...I'm game. I won't renew until I see a game plan to shore up the board's operational mechanisms. I'm not alone.
    2016 ACR "ACR Steve White" by Woodhouse
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  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperTony View Post
    Bump.

    So far no current or new national officer has acknowledged the above...

    When we formed the VOA the initial bylaws were drafted in 2013 but back then we were all actively, if not overactive, participating to ensure the board was functioning 100%. But it's time to take another look at the role of the board and enhance it, per some of the recommendations above to ensure situations like this don't materialize again in the future. However, I am concerned that anything will change in this regard considering that some of the folks that allowed this situation to happen serve on the current board, and if not mistaken, are elected as new national leaders. If the allegations are true that we have both directors and new incoming national leaders not willing to listen to membership, let alone minimizing the comments here...what's going actually going to change?!?

    We have a Bylaws Director? What does this person do regarding the bylaws? I couldn't find a description for this appointed role in the bylaws. If the role is to ensure bylaws are being followed well that failed miserably.

    I would hope that given my history in helping this club get started, moving my region over, volunteerism, etc. would be appreciated with the leadership as someone that's not a complainer or a word jockey...but someone that sincerely has ideas to help, and would like to help. When I walked away in 2015 everything was fine both nationally and in my region. Discouraged to see where we are but would like to see our club survive.

    So if anyone on the board/leadership wants to chat about the above suggestions...I'm game. I won't renew until I see a game plan to shore up the board's operational mechanisms. I'm not alone.
    That’s a radical change for this board to take on. When I first saw it, I didn’t respond hoping someone on the national level would say it was a great idea. Wes, the incoming VOA Vice President would be the only one that I think that would like this. Your concept has a shared-power concept, which the current officers don’t like. I really think you concept is what this club needs for accountability and for this club to continue. There is over 1700 members who expect some sort of accountability and your suggestion seems like it will work.

    Jeff Barnes (ex-region president of the Carolinas)
    Last edited by CarolinaViper; 19 Hours Ago at 09:03 PM.

  6. #606
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    ViperTony,

    Your proposal is exactly what is needed, and was needed to avoid falling to where we are today. Your proposal will have full support of several board members I know, and I think National executive officers actually would as well with some encouragement. None of the VOA Board likes where we are, we all know the system was broken, and hundreds could be sitting on the sidelines waiting for the VOA to start earning their trust.

    Bylaws have been terribly ignored, and the responsibility for following them should be passed to someone else as a first measure.
    2014 SRT Black TA, 69,000 kms. Last of the 159 built. Thanks to Ralph and Team Viper for an incredible Viper!
    2019 Porsche 911 Turbo S, 19,000 kms.

  7. #607
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    This is going to be blunt.
    After having some time to review this situation and look at the numbers, I'm afraid the VOA is financially doomed unless a lot of DRASTIC measures are put into place.

    The crap show that was the VCA really showed how important transparency is....I thought for sure the VOA would not fall into this cesspool where trust is now a huge issue. The lack of response and showing where the monies went speaks volumes. I'm pissed and ashamed of the people in charge and those that let it go THIS LONG without saying anything to the membership.

    1. If the club is to be saved, the VOA has to file for some sort of creditor protection....maybe one of the CPA's can explain if Chapter 11 is the best to re-organize with a new business plan and a plan to pay off the creditors.

    2. The top brass all need to resign and not be allowed to have any dealings or managerial roles in the club....I DON'T TRUST YOU. Keeping this financial issue a secret for nearly all of 2021 is not transparent. And I'd bet that a lot of these financial issues were very apparent in 2020 yet silence from our leaders. No reason or excuse can be accepted. You had a job to do and you failed at it the worst way with your lack of transparency. I'm just waiting to see this on Jalopnik and be the laughing stock of the car club world....again.

    3. IIRC, the VOA uses Quickbooks. Unless there is MASSIVE fraud, with a couple clicks of the mouse you can look at individual accounts and print out a report on where and who received monies from club. Why hasn't this been answered in the last month where multiple people ask how and who is getting money towards the magazine production, presidents meeting, etc. How can this be happening and where is the transparency? If you're going to claim that the numbers have not yet been put into Quickbooks, then that is even more reason to hang your head in shame and leave. Claiming an audit, I mean a "financial review" using inside people is going to take over a month and culminating with no real answers is a slap in the face. Again, lack of transparency means LACK OF TRUST.

    4.Take whatever unused balance is left on the Covid loan and give it back immediately. Once the re-organization plan is put into place, put out a special plea to the 1100 members (we'll be lucky to have 1100) and ask for a $40.00 pledge to help pay off the Covid loan. Be honest and tell them that the past leaders really screwed up and we'd like to get out from under this loan.

    5. Stop production of the magazine until re-organization can come up with a financial plan proving it is financially viable. I truly think it is an important part of the club as many members like it....but times have changed and our financial crises proves that we cannot afford it. Somebody in a past post claimed that 80% of the members want the magazine or they'd quite the club. I'd rather have 20% of members left AND a viable, healthy club. If future finances change where the magazine can be designed, edited and mailed without putting the club in the red, I'm all for it. I've talked to multiple Viper sponsors who just don't feel they get a return on investment advertising in the magazine. You know what is better for them?...Facebook. It's free and they can control the content and see immediate response. As others have said, I rarely look through the magazine any more....but people have their phones on 18 hours a day and a lot of that time is on Facebook. It's just the way social media marketing is going. So essentially the VOA Facebook page hurt potential VQ magazine ad revenue....welcome to every magazines kryptonite.

    6. NVE's.....nope, not going to happen in its current form for the next few years. COVID has changed everything and there will continue to be new variants. Last NVE I went to (Vegas) I noticed that a lot of us Viper owners are 60 and older. As new Covid variants keep coming out, more and more people of advanced age will not be going to giant events with 500 plus people sitting in a room. They are scared and a lot of them don't think the risk is worth it. With Covid there is too much risk of major lockdowns, restrictions, etc to risk the VOA's money on huge banquet halls deposits, etc. The days of getting out of an event due to Covid are coming to an end. No more PPE money and relief funds will not be available. You put a deposit down, you're not going to get it back even if the black plague resurfaces. If 20% less people attend a NVE due to a new outbreak or variant, that is probably going to cause a financial loss. Way too risky of a financial investment. If NVE's can be an option, maybe it's time to look at limiting the number of attendees to 200-300 and charging $1200-$1500 per head and making it much more special and exotic. The venues would be much cheaper, logistics would cost much less and there are a lot more options to offer a group of 200 rather than a huge mob of 700. First come first serve....you'll have to pay to play. Other car events like week long rallies charge $5k to $7k for the opportunity to play and have fun. In todays market, $1500.00 for a four day getaway is not out of the norm.

    7. Changing to an accounting cash basis really should have only affected 2018 numbers....from there on the accounting system should not have mattered assuming everything was entered correctly and honestly. Maybe one of the CPA's can confirm if I'm correct. Blaming cash basis accounting for our situation is a bunch of crap...especially since we have people in the leadership roles that are CPA's, etc.

    8. This forum is important to me for tech and repair help...as our cars get older the database of this forum and its operation is key. Well I can promise you that no VOA funds were spent on the our forum software....it is way past its prime. Even the current VCA is running much better and superior forum software than us. How the hell can this be?

    9. Honesty is the best policy....why can't the Bylaws be followed? Why no honest answers? Why even have Bylaws? Again, it is coming back to a huge trust issue.

    10. For those international Viper owners, why the hell do you put up with this crap...for a magazine? I'm amazed you haven't just did your own UK Viper group or European Viper group for the Swiss, Germans and others and tell national to pound sand. The way the club has treated the international regions is an embarrassment. That goes for our members up in Canada.....you all must be very frustrated too.

    11. The current VOA's is essentially VCA 2.0. I cannot believe how history is repeating itself in 5 short years. I'm actually afraid to learn how this happened.

    Good luck to the members of the club....I really don't think the "powers in charge" will do what is necessary to save the club as it is too drastic with too many egos blocking success.

  8. #608
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    The VOA, whether it wants to admit it or not, became a legacy car club when production of the Viper ended in 2017. There are a number of viable legacy car clubs. For instance, the Thunderbird club has been around a very long time and is still functioning well. The glory days for Viper clubs are over and will not be coming back. Why? Because production of the car (A six speed naturally aspirated 10 cylinder two door monster )will never be coming back. The way to transition into a legacy car club and how a legacy car club evolves through the years and decades has already been invented. It is not a problem unique to this club.
    Last edited by Unlimtd; 8 Hours Ago at 08:35 AM.

  9. #609
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    Alright, I will try to address a few key points here:

    1. Quickbooks sounds really easy and transparent, sure. However, if I were to publish as is it would result in a ton of questions because how the records are recorded since 2018 when the new treasurer took over. Why, because transactions are rolled up into bulk transactions which means we have to get into the billings statements and receipts to associate the dollars to each large transaction. So, you will see a payout on Monday for $13,000 and then ask me why the heck did the VOA pay out 13K! For which I have to cross refence that transaction to about 29 other transactions for that day which would show which regions received their payout from the split. That one is easy. Now wrap that into a transaction for over $25K that involves phone calls, mailings, membership badges, labor for stuffing envelopes, packing store purchases, inventory management, etc... So, I show you a $25K expense and you would say that I am just wasting money when that transaction actually covers over 1000 people receiving something form the company that we pay to provide the service. Now, go backwards to pre-2018 and I can see every transaction for every single club member that renewed, bought something, was sent something, or signed up for something like NVE - every single one of you. So now I have to remove over 7K of personal data from the records to ensure privacy while going through over 17K-21K lines of data for each year - great amount of work and great amount of transparency as you can see every single micro transaction.

    2. President's meetings - President's meetings transitioned began to align with NVE future events to help sell NVE to the Regions by showing the regional presidents a little of what they could expect and to take back to their membership to talk it up. Presidents' meetings were supposed to occur between NVE events to ensure the leadership team got together and worked through key issues and to help develop future initiatives to help drive VOA membership. THAT WAS A BIG FAIL! IT WAS A MONEY SUCK! WE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT MEMBERSHIP DUES NEVER PAY FOR THEM EVER AGAIN! Even when it first started, at $6k and then $8K and then $9K and the last one at $18K, they paid for, supposedly, conference rooms, audiovisual equipment, and food for the meetings. We cannot say for sure that they did not pay for rooms. We are trying to put together the last set of receipts for 2019 based on the $18K spent. However, for the 2014, 2015, and 2017 your former regional presidents who attended would know more than us on what it paid for, just to be sure! When I think of how much money that was wasted, over $41.5K, I can tell you that by-laws will be written to ensure that $10 fee in membership dues per member does not ever go to paying for another president's meeting every again in any given year. Welcome to the world of ZOOM! Oh, sorry... president's meeting will occur at the NVE event, paid for by each president who paid their own way to that NVE. For those presidents who do not attend the NVE we will provide the notes, voting should not be taking place at these events.

    3. Legacy Clubs. This is a tough one, as we can all agree that the chances of Viper's return are at about a 1% chance right now. However, the issue is not that it's all about transition into a legacy club and to copy how others have done it like the Thunderbird Club. The issue is that in 25 Years the Viper as barely exceeded 30K vehicles as opposed to the Thunderbird that hit about 4.4 million units, that puts Viper at .006% of their total allocation and owners. The VOA needs to be a partnership with current owners to help them keep their cars in running condition. We do not have the numbers on our side to keep the interest of industry to keep producing what we need right now. Just trying to buy a seal for a 2017 Viper or a brake line is a pain in my backside, most parts are No Longer Available (NLA) and in some cases, they were never made available. I can find more Gen I parts then Gen V parts. So, I would say I do not want this to be a car club that talks about the car in its heydays. It needs to be a club, with enough members, to go to FCA/Stellantis to try and make them work with us to get manufactures to produce the parts that will keep our cars going down the road and not parked in a museum or collection somewhere. At least the Thunderbird has had enough production to keep aftermarket companies stamping floor pans and frames to keep their cars alive. So, what the VOA need to become is still open for discussion. However, I do not think it is just a legacy car club, at least not just yet.

    4. Failed opportunities. So, you owned a Viper and sold it! Now leave my club and go buy a corvette! You have got to be kidding me! Why would we reject anyone who wants to be a member of the VOA? If you owned a Viper, and sold it, then you should be a legacy owner and able to keep your membership number and membership! If you are a Viper Truck owner... why the heck do we not have a spot carved out for them here on in the club and on this forum? I think they made about 10k or about 1/3 the total number of Vipers produced in 25 years over a three-year period. The engine is the same, except maybe an automatic transmission here and there! And why would we not want to encourage enthusiast to join? Again, just my two cents on this one...

    5. COVID Loan. The loan is spent. The $175K paid for the billings for 2021 that have been received. I believe we are currently $10K overspent to finish up paying off all 2021 bills and we are going to try and negotiate that 10K and then some. Some of the funds have paid for future bills like insurance, I believe, and NVE-5. However, there is nothing to give back on the loan as all the money is gone. If we, VOA membership, want to volunteer to pay back SBA loan then this is what has to happen first before a single penny is taken from anyone:
    a) 2021 Fiscal Records Published on members only forum (as a start but all years are to be published)
    b) 2022 Balanced Budget Developed - must demonstrate a positive cash flow, no deficit spending allowed
    c) 2022 Budget Approved by BoD
    d) By-laws are re-written to include a balance budget requirement
    e) By-laws are re-written to require monthly financial reports to be published for BoD and memberships review
    f) By-laws AMENDMENT that allows and agrees to a "go-fund me" style contribution system to be setup that allows anyone to contribute but requires no less than 96% of the proceeds to paying off debt - 3.74% CC service fee allowed

    6. By-laws will become our governing doctrine. A few key aspects still need to be worked out like the how and who is eligible to become a Chairman for the VOA BoD etc... Also, what do committees do, how are they governed, who forms them, who do they report to, and what do they provide, etc... We are re-engineering the club to try and make it work for all of us and not just a few of us.
    Last edited by viperguy69; 15 Hours Ago at 01:18 AM.
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  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrackAire View Post
    8. This forum is important to me for tech and repair help...as our cars get older the database of this forum and its operation is key. Well I can promise you that no VOA funds were spent on the our forum software....it is way past its prime. Even the current VCA is running much better and superior forum software than us. How the hell can this be?
    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    3. Legacy Clubs. ... The VOA needs to be a partnership with current owners to help them keep their cars in running condition. We do not have the numbers on our side to keep the interest of industry to keep producing what we need right now. ... It needs to be a club, with enough members, to go to FCA/Stellantis to try and make them work with us to get manufactures to produce the parts that will keep our cars going down the road and not parked in a museum or collection somewhere. ... So, what the VOA need to become is still open for discussion. However, I do not think it is just a legacy car club, at least not just yet.

    4. Failed opportunities. ... Why would we reject anyone who wants to be a member of the VOA? If you owned a Viper, and sold it, then you should be a legacy owner and able to keep your membership number and membership! If you are a Viper Truck owner... why the heck do we not have a spot carved out for them here on in the club and on this forum? I think they made about 10k or about 1/3 the total number of Vipers produced in 25 years over a three-year period. The engine is the same, except maybe an automatic transmission here and there! And why would we not want to encourage enthusiast to join? Again, just my two cents on this one...
    Those are all EXCELLENT points, I fully agree!

    I have long asked myself why the RAM SRT-10 is not featured on here with it's own sub-forum. More members with the same passion, pretty much. To me, it's a no-brainer.

    Also, as I said before, the forum is a VERY IMPORTANT aspect to me as a Viper owner. It's a HUGE database, and worth SO MUCH MORE than anything on Facebook or other social media platforms, which are, to me at least, a waste of time. There's just tons of chatter with the occasional important or helpful information on there. Good luck going to find anything older on Facebook if you're looking for something. Also, you don't control whats being posted, or how these channels work their revenue streams and suddenly decide to not show your content on news feeds anymore. No thank you. Legacy car club or not, the VOA website and forum are IMPORTANT, and also like a "business card".

    In terms of magazines: I LOVE glossy and high-quality car magazines, such as Octane, Vantage (independent Aston Martin magazine, unfortunately it stopped being produced about a month or two ago), the new Tazio and so on. And I'd never want to read those online. But the Viper Quartely is anything but, so I don't understand the big fuzz about it. Stop it now to save a ton of money, restructure the club and focus on what's REALLY important right now, and maybe you'd gain back the trust of a lot of members - me included.
    1998 Viper GTS | 2017 Shelby GT350

  11. #611
    Regional President
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    Personally I have no wish to see a shared forum with truck and Vipers. Two totally different products and I could see a lot of issues with owners getting confused if reading about a particular issue.

  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    Alright, I will try to address a few key points here:

    1. Quickbooks sounds really easy and transparent, sure. However, if I were to publish as is it would result in a ton of questions because how the records are recorded since 2018 when the new treasurer took over. Why, because transactions are rolled up into bulk transactions which means we have to get into the billings statements and receipts to associate the dollars to each large transaction. So, you will see a payout on Monday for $13,000 and then ask me why the heck did the VOA pay out 13K! For which I have to cross refence that transaction to about 29 other transactions for that day which would show which regions received their payout from the split. That one is easy. Now wrap that into a transaction for over $25K that involves phone calls, mailings, membership badges, labor for stuffing envelopes, packing store purchases, inventory management, etc... So, I show you a $25K expense and you would say that I am just wasting money when that transaction actually covers over 1000 people receiving something form the company that we pay to provide the service. Now, go backwards to pre-2018 and I can see every transaction for every single club member that renewed, bought something, was sent something, or signed up for something like NVE - every single one of you. So now I have to remove over 7K of personal data from the records to ensure privacy while going through over 17K-21K lines of data for each year - great amount of work and great amount of transparency as you can see every single micro transaction.

    2. President's meetings - President's meetings transitioned began to align with NVE future events to help sell NVE to the Regions by showing the regional presidents a little of what they could expect and to take back to their membership to talk it up. Presidents' meetings were supposed to occur between NVE events to ensure the leadership team got together and worked through key issues and to help develop future initiatives to help drive VOA membership. THAT WAS A BIG FAIL! IT WAS A MONEY SUCK! WE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT MEMBERSHIP DUES NEVER PAY FOR THEM EVER AGAIN! Even when it first started, at $6k and then $8K and then $9K and the last one at $18K, they paid for, supposedly, conference rooms, audiovisual equipment, and food for the meetings. We cannot say for sure that they did not pay for rooms. We are trying to put together the last set of receipts for 2019 based on the $18K spent. However, for the 2014, 2015, and 2017 your former regional presidents who attended would know more than us on what it paid for, just to be sure! When I think of how much money that was wasted, over $41.5K, I can tell you that by-laws will be written to ensure that $10 fee in membership dues per member does not ever go to paying for another president's meeting every again in any given year. Welcome to the world of ZOOM! Oh, sorry... president's meeting will occur at the NVE event, paid for by each president who paid their own way to that NVE. For those presidents who do not attend the NVE we will provide the notes, voting should not be taking place at these events.

    3. Legacy Clubs. This is a tough one, as we can all agree that the chances of Viper's return are at about a 1% chance right now. However, the issue is not that it's all about transition into a legacy club and to copy how others have done it like the Thunderbird Club. The issue is that in 25 Years the Viper as barely exceeded 30K vehicles as opposed to the Thunderbird that hit about 4.4 million units, that puts Viper at .006% of their total allocation and owners. The VOA needs to be a partnership with current owners to help them keep their cars in running condition. We do not have the numbers on our side to keep the interest of industry to keep producing what we need right now. Just trying to buy a seal for a 2017 Viper or a brake line is a pain in my backside, most parts are No Longer Available (NLA) and in some cases, they were never made available. I can find more Gen I parts then Gen V parts. So, I would say I do not want this to be a car club that talks about the car in its heydays. It needs to be a club, with enough members, to go to FCA/Stellantis to try and make them work with us to get manufactures to produce the parts that will keep our cars going down the road and not parked in a museum or collection somewhere. At least the Thunderbird has had enough production to keep aftermarket companies stamping floor pans and frames to keep their cars alive. So, what the VOA need to become is still open for discussion. However, I do not think it is just a legacy car club, at least not just yet.

    4. Failed opportunities. So, you owned a Viper and sold it! Now leave my club and go buy a corvette! You have got to be kidding me! Why would we reject anyone who wants to be a member of the VOA? If you owned a Viper, and sold it, then you should be a legacy owner and able to keep your membership number and membership! If you are a Viper Truck owner... why the heck do we not have a spot carved out for them here on in the club and on this forum? I think they made about 10k or about 1/3 the total number of Vipers produced in 25 years over a three-year period. The engine is the same, except maybe an automatic transmission here and there! And why would we not want to encourage enthusiast to join? Again, just my two cents on this one...

    5. COVID Loan. The loan is spent. The $175K paid for the billings for 2021 that have been received. I believe we are currently $10K overspent to finish up paying off all 2021 bills and we are going to try and negotiate that 10K and then some. Some of the funds have paid for future bills like insurance, I believe, and NVE-5. However, there is nothing to give back on the loan as all the money is gone. If we, VOA membership, want to volunteer to pay back SBA loan then this is what has to happen first before a single penny is taken from anyone:
    a) 2021 Fiscal Records Published on members only forum (as a start but all years are to be published)
    b) 2022 Balanced Budget Developed - must demonstrate a positive cash flow, no deficit spending allowed
    c) 2022 Budget Approved by BoD
    d) By-laws are re-written to include a balance budget requirement
    e) By-laws are re-written to require monthly financial reports to be published for BoD and memberships review
    f) By-laws AMENDMENT that allows and agrees to a "go-fund me" style contribution system to be setup that allows anyone to contribute but requires no less than 96% of the proceeds to paying off debt - 3.74% CC service fee allowed

    6. By-laws will become our governing doctrine. A few key aspects still need to be worked out like the how and who is eligible to become a Chairman for the VOA BoD etc... Also, what do committees do, how are they governed, who forms them, who do they report to, and what do they provide, etc... We are re-engineering the club to try and make it work for all of us and not just a few of us.
    Excellent post. Good catch on the relatively low number of Vipers and the very real difference it makes on trying to maintain a club. But, there definitely are legacy changes that apply due to the predictable decrease in members over the years due to the fact that there are no more new vipers and attrition. Two obvious ones that come to mind are that an expensive, glossy published, printed and mailed magazine makes no sense any more as opposed to an online magazine downloadable by any member who wishes to download and print it out; and, NVE’s have to be far more modest and financially self sustaining since they will never involve the introduction of a new Viper again. (There may be some sort of a sports car sometime in the future but it certainly will not be a 100% naturally aspirated six speed manual vehicle. It would be a hybrid or electric and will not have a manual transmission. It does not take a seer to determine this. Just look at what Dodge just announced with respect to its muscle cars.)

    Another point that should be noted is that if you look at the legacy car clubs, many of them allow legacy owners ( as you noted) and non owner, legacy or otherwise, fans to be members. I realize that the very name of this club and it’s bylaws do not allow that but, going forward, it should be considered even if a name change and a bylaw change is required. The club needs the additional dues revenue to survive into the future.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    Alright, I will try to address a few key points here:

    1. Quickbooks sounds really easy and transparent, sure. However, if I were to publish as is it would result in a ton of questions because how the records are recorded since 2018 when the new treasurer took over. Why, because transactions are rolled up into bulk transactions which means we have to get into the billings statements and receipts to associate the dollars to each large transaction. So, you will see a payout on Monday for $13,000 and then ask me why the heck did the VOA pay out 13K! For which I have to cross refence that transaction to about 29 other transactions for that day which would show which regions received their payout from the split. That one is easy. Now wrap that into a transaction for over $25K that involves phone calls, mailings, membership badges, labor for stuffing envelopes, packing store purchases, inventory management, etc... So, I show you a $25K expense and you would say that I am just wasting money when that transaction actually covers over 1000 people receiving something form the company that we pay to provide the service. Now, go backwards to pre-2018 and I can see every transaction for every single club member that renewed, bought something, was sent something, or signed up for something like NVE - every single one of you. So now I have to remove over 7K of personal data from the records to ensure privacy while going through over 17K-21K lines of data for each year - great amount of work and great amount of transparency as you can see every single micro transaction.

    2. President's meetings - President's meetings transitioned began to align with NVE future events to help sell NVE to the Regions by showing the regional presidents a little of what they could expect and to take back to their membership to talk it up. Presidents' meetings were supposed to occur between NVE events to ensure the leadership team got together and worked through key issues and to help develop future initiatives to help drive VOA membership. THAT WAS A BIG FAIL! IT WAS A MONEY SUCK! WE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT MEMBERSHIP DUES NEVER PAY FOR THEM EVER AGAIN! Even when it first started, at $6k and then $8K and then $9K and the last one at $18K, they paid for, supposedly, conference rooms, audiovisual equipment, and food for the meetings. We cannot say for sure that they did not pay for rooms. We are trying to put together the last set of receipts for 2019 based on the $18K spent. However, for the 2014, 2015, and 2017 your former regional presidents who attended would know more than us on what it paid for, just to be sure! When I think of how much money that was wasted, over $41.5K, I can tell you that by-laws will be written to ensure that $10 fee in membership dues per member does not ever go to paying for another president's meeting every again in any given year. Welcome to the world of ZOOM! Oh, sorry... president's meeting will occur at the NVE event, paid for by each president who paid their own way to that NVE. For those presidents who do not attend the NVE we will provide the notes, voting should not be taking place at these events.

    3. Legacy Clubs. This is a tough one, as we can all agree that the chances of Viper's return are at about a 1% chance right now. However, the issue is not that it's all about transition into a legacy club and to copy how others have done it like the Thunderbird Club. The issue is that in 25 Years the Viper as barely exceeded 30K vehicles as opposed to the Thunderbird that hit about 4.4 million units, that puts Viper at .006% of their total allocation and owners. The VOA needs to be a partnership with current owners to help them keep their cars in running condition. We do not have the numbers on our side to keep the interest of industry to keep producing what we need right now. Just trying to buy a seal for a 2017 Viper or a brake line is a pain in my backside, most parts are No Longer Available (NLA) and in some cases, they were never made available. I can find more Gen I parts then Gen V parts. So, I would say I do not want this to be a car club that talks about the car in its heydays. It needs to be a club, with enough members, to go to FCA/Stellantis to try and make them work with us to get manufactures to produce the parts that will keep our cars going down the road and not parked in a museum or collection somewhere. At least the Thunderbird has had enough production to keep aftermarket companies stamping floor pans and frames to keep their cars alive. So, what the VOA need to become is still open for discussion. However, I do not think it is just a legacy car club, at least not just yet.

    4. Failed opportunities. So, you owned a Viper and sold it! Now leave my club and go buy a corvette! You have got to be kidding me! Why would we reject anyone who wants to be a member of the VOA? If you owned a Viper, and sold it, then you should be a legacy owner and able to keep your membership number and membership! If you are a Viper Truck owner... why the heck do we not have a spot carved out for them here on in the club and on this forum? I think they made about 10k or about 1/3 the total number of Vipers produced in 25 years over a three-year period. The engine is the same, except maybe an automatic transmission here and there! And why would we not want to encourage enthusiast to join? Again, just my two cents on this one...

    5. COVID Loan. The loan is spent. The $175K paid for the billings for 2021 that have been received. I believe we are currently $10K overspent to finish up paying off all 2021 bills and we are going to try and negotiate that 10K and then some. Some of the funds have paid for future bills like insurance, I believe, and NVE-5. However, there is nothing to give back on the loan as all the money is gone. If we, VOA membership, want to volunteer to pay back SBA loan then this is what has to happen first before a single penny is taken from anyone:
    a) 2021 Fiscal Records Published on members only forum (as a start but all years are to be published)
    b) 2022 Balanced Budget Developed - must demonstrate a positive cash flow, no deficit spending allowed
    c) 2022 Budget Approved by BoD
    d) By-laws are re-written to include a balance budget requirement
    e) By-laws are re-written to require monthly financial reports to be published for BoD and memberships review
    f) By-laws AMENDMENT that allows and agrees to a "go-fund me" style contribution system to be setup that allows anyone to contribute but requires no less than 96% of the proceeds to paying off debt - 3.74% CC service fee allowed

    6. By-laws will become our governing doctrine. A few key aspects still need to be worked out like the how and who is eligible to become a Chairman for the VOA BoD etc... Also, what do committees do, how are they governed, who forms them, who do they report to, and what do they provide, etc... We are re-engineering the club to try and make it work for all of us and not just a few of us.
    Wes,

    Again you have shown the ability to adapt and change by listening to suggestions that have been made on the forum. That's what is needed for this club to survive. If the club leadership takes the above suggestions and implements them, I think a lot of members will return. But unfortunately, until they actually see the changes many may not renew, as they have lost the trust in VOA leadership.

    My comments to your paragraphs.

    1. Don’t know why there was such a change in the way we handled our financial transactions from 2018 – present. Joe for some reason seemed to make a lot of changes. Of all the VOA national officer positions, the treasurer seems to have the most time involved on a weekly basis. Joe may have made the changes to lessen the time he has to put into it. I agree with Joe’s assessment in the last meeting…the position of treasurer needs a deputy treasurer.
    Seems like the club would benefit to have an expert in Quick Books come and professional set it up for the club. Our small business has more transactions than the VOA with different types of pay-in and pay-outs. We can tell at any given time what has been asked in the club with their finances. Each region should have a separate account, as when a person pays their dues, as they do decide what region they want to be aligned with. The store should have a separate account, NVE should have a separate account, VQ magazine should have a separate account. Any and all things coming in or out should have a separate account. Yes it is a PITA to set up, we had our accountant do it for us, yes it cost, but well worth the money.

    2. Awesome agree 100%.

    3. Agree in part. I don’t think you will ever get FCA to remanufacture parts…they don’t care. But on the other hand we may be able to influence smaller companies to, sort of like the tire deal with Continental Tires in conjunction with Forgeline Wheels and Hoosier. Do not know if the club had a hand in making this happen or if the companies above realized a niche in the market.

    4. Some regions have been doing this for years, as they knew membership would fall with the Viper production coming to an end.

    5. Agree with everything but para (a) for two reasons. First, we are a nonprofit, our finances should be out in the open for all to see…We are taking advantages of some tax incentives. By openly sharing the clubs finances and yearly budget, old members who have left the club will be able to see if the leadership as actually changed proceedures and might rejoin the club.

    6. Totally agree.
    Last edited by CarolinaViper; 7 Hours Ago at 09:35 AM.

  14. #614
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    "Another point that should be noted is that if you look at the legacy car clubs, many of them allow legacy owners ( as you noted) and non owner, legacy or otherwise, fans to be members. I realize that the very name of this club and it’s bylaws do not allow that but, going forward, it should be considered even if a name change and a bylaw change is required. The club needs the additional dues revenue to survive into the future".

    I've been singing this untapped Legacy Member song for weeks now. Current "leadership" needs to move on & do what is right for the Club. Without the Club we are all disadvantaged. We all screw up sometime in our lives. Learn, and move forward. Trust, transparency, over communication, following the rules, having a plan (3 to 5 years out), working the plan, & not being afraid to change the plan if needed. I can only hope that the Club does not cease to exist. I doubt another "try" at it will be successful. The bones of this Club are good, let's preserve them.
    2008 Venom Red Coupe -- Sold moving toward a GEN V.
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  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboy 18 View Post
    Personally I have no wish to see a shared forum with truck and Vipers. Two totally different products and I could see a lot of issues with owners getting confused if reading about a particular issue.
    I have to agree, maybe for not all the same reasons. A clear precedent has been set over the past 17+ years and other than folks that have owned both the Viper and the RAM SRT-10 there is a clear "step child" view of truck owners. This would appear to be an attempt at this stage to gather a few more dollars from people that would get zero value for their money (opinion). I tried for a long time to get the RAM SRT-10 included here and other places, it was always a clear "NO", and that OK. I understand and accepted a long time ago the reasons for the no. Even I will argue against this addition with the folks I know

  16. #616
    Regional Treasurer
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    viperguy69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post

    5. Agree with everything but para (a) for two reasons. First, we are a nonprofit, our finances should be out in the open for all to see…We are taking advantages of some tax incentives. By openly sharing the clubs finances and yearly budget, old members who have left the club will be able to see if the leadership as actually changed proceedures and might rejoin the club.
    Dang it, you got me... I wrote it without membership only view, then changed it. I have no real good reason just yet other then I want the paid members to rip the books apart first and for us to clean up the records, so they make sense with better details before they go public. Not to hide anything just to clearly articulate it. I also do not want to accidentally publish something that gets missed that might contain any sort of PII... However, you are right that the records should be made public. As a compromise, how about a 50,000 ft level view of the books that looks something like this for everyone's view... hint, hint... not a final product (just converting 2013-2017 to cash basis) but an initial view and using a information to look at the earlier years to try and compare 2013 through 2021 from some sort of common ground:

    2013-2017 Cash Basis.jpg
    2005 Copperhead #10/300
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  17. #617
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    CarolinaViper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperguy69 View Post
    Dang it, you got me... I wrote it without membership only view, then changed it. I have no real good reason just yet other then I want the paid members to rip the books apart first and for us to clean up the records, so they make sense with better details before they go public. Not to hide anything just to clearly articulate it. I also do not want to accidentally publish something that gets missed that might contain any sort of PII... However, you are right that the records should be made public. As a compromise, how about a 50,000 ft level view of the books that looks something like this for everyone's view... hint, hint... not a final product (just converting 2013-2017 to cash basis) but an initial view and using a information to look at the earlier years to try and compare 2013 through 2021 from some sort of common ground:

    2013-2017 Cash Basis.jpg
    Wes,

    You should be cloned. On the serious side I really think you guys are making great progress. I'm sure you noticed the following regarding the VQ magazine:

    2017 members 1921………. $125,520.00………108 less members from 2016 - VQ magazine cost increased by $32, 120.00
    2016 members 2029…………$93,400.00……..…..71 more members than 2015 - VQ magazine cost decrease of $2,098.00
    2015 members 1958…………$95,498.00……..…..2 less members than 2014 - VQ magazine cost increased by $20,281.00
    2014 members 1960…………$75,217.00

    Wonder if you can idenify what caused the drastic increase in the magazine cost. Also, on the revenue for advertising is there breakdown in what the advertising supports - Meaning breakdown of ads for the VQ magazine or VOA website advertising

    Membership totals for the years came from Beth.
    Last edited by CarolinaViper; 2 Hours Ago at 02:05 PM.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaViper View Post
    Wes,

    You should be cloned. On the serious side I really think you guys are making great progress. I'm sure you noticed the following regarding the VQ magazine:

    2017 members 1921………. $125,520.00………108 less members from 2016 - VQ magazine cost increased by $32, 120.00
    2016 members 2029…………$93,400.00……..…..71 more members than 2015 - VQ magazine cost decrease of $2,098.00
    2015 members 1958…………$95,498.00……..…..2 less members than 2014 - VQ magazine cost increased by $20,281.00
    2014 members 1960…………$75,217.00

    Wonder if you can idenify what caused the drastic increase in the magazine cost. Also, on the revenue for advertising is there breakdown in what the advertising supports - Meaning breakdown of ads for the VQ magazine or VOA website advertising

    Membership totals for the years came from Beth.
    You can't look at these numbers because according to the top of the report they are on the cash basis, so they are worthless for comparison purposes. The Magazine was always what delayed me from filing the 990, the fourth edition of the magazine for each year wasn't usually finished until May or June of the following year, so I had to wait for bills to come in before I closed the year. The 2014 numbers above are probably for only 3 editions.

  19. #619
    Regional Treasurer
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    Lol, I was setting you up and got you... That is the issue with cash basis, the billings for VQM got rolled up based on how and when the bill was paid when we did this drill. It also did not align all the $$ exactly in the right lines for accountability. In this case 2016 billings are rolled up into 2017 billings because of how and when the bills were paid. There are a few items like that which have to be sorted to ensure the information aligns and the story stays within the storyboard by year. We are not hiding information but rather aligning the facts to where they need to align to. As you can see, everyone is going to ask us why each number is changing as membership goes up and down. Membership is going to be shooting holes in the pricing when it is inverted compared to another year's membership base. Some numbers will not make sense when you initially look at it until you know the rest of the story.

    Yes, each of those lines has another level of break-out. But this is the level I was thinking should be acceptable for public release. You just need to see the big blue arrows. For members, you get to see all the little arrows that feed into the big blue arrows.

    Also, there was an increase in cost to the Magazine, sometime around then. And if there is someone out there who has been a member since the very beginning could do a quick look, by year and quarter, what the page counts of each magazine were and publish them, it would be greatly appreciated. I want to be able to break down each magazine by cost per page. It is our initial understanding that costs increased by about $800/total cost per quarterly, $3200/year, based on page count increases in 8-page block increments. The magazine is, supposedly, constructed in 8-page blocks because of how the printing press works. So, we either increase by 8 pages or we decrease by 8 pages. The version of the Magazine we are starting with for 2022 will initially be limited to 48-pages per issue, this will allow us to build a budget based on a fixed price structure, hardcopy initial estimated at about $6.50 printed + $2.50 average cost shipped = $9.00 total cost door-to-door.
    Last edited by viperguy69; 1 Minute Ago at 04:51 PM.
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