Heat shielding for headers

[Whiskey]

Does anyone have pics of the Gen3 heat shields on the Gen5? I was thinking the bolt pattern is different.

[blingnoring]

i have stock headers and got the high flow cats and belanger mufflers from JonB and sent them to Swain. They charged me $550 to do the cats and mufflers. I believe the guy's name there is George, he said it would be fine applying the coating on the hi flow cats. And because JonB painted the exhaust tips black for me, you cannot see any of the white coating. I didn't measure any temps but feeling my sills before and after is a huge difference. Now they are just warm instead of very hot to the touch.

I did ask if i get headers down the road would i be able to wrap the headers on top of their coating and he did not recommend doing that

[Arizona Vipers]

AZ did you use their HT Silicone Spray on the wrap?

No, what does that do?

[J TNT]

No, what does that do?

If you have a flammable fluid like oil or gas dripping on the exhaust wrap it will help to Not absorb into the wrap and minimize fire potential .

[Aevus]

seems like a good idea

https://www.designengineering.com/hi...g-spray-black/

...but as many other things: out of stock.

[Aevus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIBE0xYDm7E&t=71s

[Hawk]

Finally received my headers. I sent them out to Swain Tech for the coating. The coating is thick and has an orange peel surface it took the flat black high temp paint great. I will get them installed in the next couple weeks. I will post temp readings after my next track day. I’m hopeful that the coating will keep the temp down. The cost to coat the headers as well as the collector pipes with shipping $698

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[Hawk]

After

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[J TNT]

Thanks for posting , looking forward to see what the Temp. Delta is .

[Whiskey]

When installing Belanger headers on my Gen5, the Mechanic suggested to add some Gen3 manifold heat shields and he modified them to fit over the headers. I also have Spark plugs heat socks.
He is a former Mechanic for a Viper racing team.

How did he med them to fit? I didn't see an easy way to make it work with my ARH headers.

[Whitey]

After

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May I ask what black coating you used?

[Hawk]

Rust-Oleum high heat

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B08MWX88...roduct_details

[Whitey]

Thanks

[Hawk]

I have some preliminary temperature readings for the headers with the Swain coating. It was only spirited street driving with an ambient air temperature of 50 degrees. I’m hoping someone can post temperature readings under the similar conditions with the stock exhaust manifolds and or temperature readings on the track with stock manifold and or headers to get a base reading to determine how the coating is preforming. For reference the headers and collector pipes are coated with Swain coating ,the hi-flow cats and factory muffler have no coating
Reading at top of headers close to plugs 397 degrees
The collector pipe close to the O2 sensor 470 degrees
The body side sills at the hottest spot 148 degrees

Once I get a day at the track I will post reading under those conditions
Thanks
Dennis

[ViperGeorge]

I have some preliminary temperature readings for the headers with the Swain coating. It was only spirited street driving with an ambient air temperature of 50 degrees. I’m hoping someone can post temperature readings under the similar conditions with the stock exhaust manifolds and or temperature readings on the track with stock manifold and or headers to get a base reading to determine how the coating is preforming. For reference the headers and collector pipes are coated with Swain coating ,the hi-flow cats and factory muffler have no coating
Reading at top of headers close to plugs 397 degrees
The collector pipe close to the O2 sensor 470 degrees
The body side sills at the hottest spot 148 degrees

Once I get a day at the track I will post reading under those conditions
Thanks
Dennis

Much higher than what I am seeing. Does anyone know what header temps are without coatings?

[Hawk]

I’m wondering if the street driving could be showing higher temps as there is stop and go. On the track there is constant flow of air thru the grill even though you are working the motor harder?

[ViperGeorge]

I’m wondering if the street driving could be showing higher temps as there is stop and go. On the track there is constant flow of air thru the grill even though you are working the motor harder?

Maybe.

[Lawineer]

No way. Tracking will have much hotter exhaust. It's both running richer (so fuel in the exhaust), harder, faster, and it has very quick, very big throttle position changes (which again causes exhaust in the primaries).

Think of it this way.
Roughly 1/3 of the energy goes to moving the car
1/3 goes to wasted heat in the fluids (oil, coolant, etc)
1/3 goes to exhaust

When does coolant get the hottest? Driving around town or at the track?

[Arizona Vipers]

No way. Tracking will have much hotter exhaust. It's both running richer (so fuel in the exhaust), harder, faster, and it has very quick, very big throttle position changes (which again causes exhaust in the primaries).

Think of it this way.
Roughly 1/3 of the energy goes to moving the car
1/3 goes to wasted heat in the fluids (oil, coolant, etc)
1/3 goes to exhaust

When does coolant get the hottest? Driving around town or at the track?

Yeah agreed. If you really want to get it hot, lower speed tracks where you are in 2nd gear most of the track at high RPM's, that will get your oil to 250 pretty quick. You're using about 50hp on the street, on the track you're using all the horsepower you have. Again if you want "cold" headers wrap them. I can literally touch mine with my fingers meaning they are probably 150*

[ViperGeorge]

I will have to check my header temps again at the track. A friend and I both have 9L-Extremes with Swain coated ARH headers. Cats and Mufflers are not coated. We checked both cars immediately after coming off of track after about 25 minutes. Primary pipes were around 140-150 degrees using a laser pyrometer. Both our headers are the flat white that the Swain coatings come in naturally. While I didn't try to touch them I could easily put my hand within a couple of inches of the pipes without noticing any significant heat. I couldn't get close to my rotors, they were hot, like 500 degrees. There was a clear difference between the heat of the headers and the heat of the header primary pipes.

[J TNT]

To get an accurate measurement it’s best to scan a black object even if you just spray a small area that you are scanning.

[Arizona Vipers]

I will have to check my header temps again at the track. A friend and I both have 9L-Extremes with Swain coated ARH headers. Cats and Mufflers are not coated. We checked both cars immediately after coming off of track after about 25 minutes. Primary pipes were around 140-150 degrees using a laser pyrometer. Both our headers are the flat white that the Swain coatings come in naturally. While I didn't try to touch them I could easily put my hand within a couple of inches of the pipes without noticing any significant heat. I couldn't get close to my rotors, they were hot, like 500 degrees. There was a clear difference between the heat of the headers and the heat of the header primary pipes.

Our rotors get to over 1000 degrees very easily and even higher with slicks. I can't even take my front wheels off for at least an hour after a session

[Lawineer]

Yeah agreed. If you really want to get it hot, lower speed tracks where you are in 2nd gear most of the track at high RPM's, that will get your oil to 250 pretty quick. You're using about 50hp on the street, on the track you're using all the horsepower you have. Again if you want "cold" headers wrap them. I can literally touch mine with my fingers meaning they are probably 150*

Yup!
When we were developing the TT powertrain for the S7, we wanted turbos before the cats for a multitude of reasons, the least of which was not lag/response of the turbos. At the time, that was a tall order for emissions with a big bore 7 liter engine. The big issue with cold start is in the name- the cats aren't hot and working effectively yet. Putting a turbine in the middle to remove heat from the exhaust compounded that.
We tried coatings left and right. They really don't do anything. Then we wrapped them and it made a world of difference. Then I think they changed the cam or something and it all became a moot issue. The car actually made way more power than we expected on 8psi so they dropped it to 4psi, added compression and I *think* removed the intercooler. Then they added the intercooler and cranked it to 8psi for the competition variant with 1000hp.

It makes sense when you think about the physics of it. Heat transfer (or resistance to, aka insulation) is basically thermal conductivity of the material times the thickness of the material. Which makes sense if you think about it. Insulation that is twice as thick is going to insulate twice as well. Well, coatings have really good (low) thermal conductivity, but they're like 0.01" thick or something. You're probably talking 10x that for the thickness of fiberglass wrappings (which are also pretty good insulators).

[Lawineer]

Our rotors get to over 1000 degrees very easily and even higher with slicks. I can't even take my front wheels off for at least an hour after a session

I waited a good 30-45min and damaged my clearcoat when I put the tie down through the front wheels to tie it down on the trailer, lol.

[Arizona Vipers]

Yup!
When we were developing the TT powertrain for the S7, we wanted turbos before the cats for a multitude of reasons, the least of which was not lag/response of the turbos. At the time, that was a tall order for emissions with a big bore 7 liter engine. The big issue with cold start is in the name- the cats aren't hot and working effectively yet. Putting a turbine in the middle to remove heat from the exhaust compounded that.
We tried coatings left and right. They really don't do anything. Then we wrapped them and it made a world of difference. Then I think they changed the cam or something and it all became a moot issue. The car actually made way more power than we expected on 8psi so they dropped it to 4psi, added compression and I *think* removed the intercooler. Then they added the intercooler and cranked it to 8psi for the competition variant with 1000hp.

It makes sense when you think about the physics of it. Heat transfer (or resistance to, aka insulation) is basically thermal conductivity of the material times the thickness of the material. Which makes sense if you think about it. Insulation that is twice as thick is going to insulate twice as well. Well, coatings have really good (low) thermal conductivity, but they're like 0.01" thick or something. You're probably talking 10x that for the thickness of fiberglass wrappings (which are also pretty good insulators).

You've got some cool stories! On our turbo time attack project we are shielding everything with Inconel. Machined formed stuff (Like in the pic below) for the turbos, manifolds, piping etc, and we'll cut the sheets in house and glue/rivet on the smaller stuff. It's probably going to cost $7000 or so. The fastest time attack cars in the country come down to one thing only, how much horsepower you can keep cool for one lap. Nothing else matters.



inconel.jpg