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  1. #1
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    2 cylinder is dead

    Ok, Ill start off with my process of how I got here and then I'm gonna need help in what my next steps are. First off, I have a 97 GTS with approx 45k miles. Previously I think it had a super charger installed as there is a ROE VEC box and a injector impedance box on the car. After talking with Scott at ROE performance, he recommended I removed both those boxes. But I want to figure out this other issue before I create a new one.

    I have had the "service engine" light pop on a couple of times. And it always produced the #2 cylinder misfire code. It always appeared in the most random of circumstances, never during anything obvious. I finally got around to getting the plugs changed. I originally went with some Autolite plugs, but the code came back. I talked to Viper Steve locally and decided to change to the OEM plugs, and check the ohms across the plug wires. The plug wires do look old, but the resistance across them was nothing to be alarmed. #2 wire was 100 ohms and #10 was 50. Fired it up and #2 was still dead. Verified with infrared gun.

    At this time, I decided to swap injectors. So I swapped the #2 and #6. I turned the car over, but it stopped spinning abruptly. Thought to myself "what the hell did you do?". I pulled all the plugs and tried to spin the motor over. Fuel shot out of the #6 cylinder and all over the inside hood and my work bench. (Verified #6 as I had my stepson stand over on the RH side with safety glasses on.) Apparently what stopped the motor from spinning was a hydro lock caused by fuel, not good.

    I still was unable to tell if my injector was working on the #2 cylinder, so I reinstalled the spark plugs and disconnected the #6 injector. I got the car started and was able to verify the #2 cylinder was still dead.

    So now on to my next step. First, I know I need to replace the injector O-rings (damaged on swap over). But what should I do about the next step in my process? I feel I will need to have the original #2 injector tested, as I'm thing it was stuck open. Then should I be looking at back testing the wiring harness, or could this all be caused from the VEC & impedance box?

  2. #2
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    I know very little about the 2 boxes, but would remove them sooner than later. You might want to have the factory service manual handy with its wiring diagrams.

    I would replace the plugs and wire too without delay. Use the Gen 3 Champion plug and Mopar wires. People will say use quality wires but my experience with them is they are overpriced junk.

    Send all your injectors to Tony Armour for cleaning and testing. McMaster Carr is dirt cheap for the orings but they will likely replace them with the servicing.

    The above would be my starting point based on what you've said.
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  3. #3
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    Did you do any check to see if the issue is spark or fuel? Chasing both at the same time may lead to incorrect conclusions or unnecessary changes.

  4. #4
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    Jametemp, you are getting some excellent advice below...especially on removing "boxes" as we have discussed.

    As ViperSRT, said...I would check for spark at plug 2 as the next step. If you have spark, let me know...and if you like, I have a spare new-in-the- box injector that you can install and go from there.
    I don't send or receive "PM's" since I prefer DIRECT communication.

  5. #5
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    Well...if it was running with the VEC and impedance box, can I infer it was not running stock injectors? No need for the impedance box with stock injectors and I would also infer the VEC was being used for a more custom tune than anything else....no reason for it if not running a modified tune and/or other low impedance injectors. SO many unanswered questions here regarding your issue....

  6. #6
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    If indeed your PCM has been flashed, and said flash is complimented by the boxes, then you may need to pick a direction you are going.

    I'm not sure what your dyno numbers are but it's pretty rare to see a setup like yours. And even rarer to find parts for and troubleshooting advise. I'd still do the plugs/wires/injectors if you decide to keep that setup. There are plenty of other common tuning platforms if you decide to tune via another method.

    If your path is back to stock then like 'ellow pointed out, you'll need to look at your injectors to see what you have. I'd also maybe send your PCM to Dan Lesser of Viper Specialty Performance to see what's loaded. If the car didn't come with a tuner like an SCT, you really can't check that on your own. Dan can tho. He has skillz and equipment.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave6666 View Post
    I know very little about the 2 boxes, but would remove them sooner than later. You might want to have the factory service manual handy with its wiring diagrams.

    I would replace the plugs and wire too without delay. Use the Gen 3 Champion plug and Mopar wires. People will say use quality wires but my experience with them is they are overpriced junk.

    Send all your injectors to Tony Armour for cleaning and testing. McMaster Carr is dirt cheap for the orings but they will likely replace them with the servicing.

    The above would be my starting point based on what you've said.
    I do have the service manual for my car. So I will start to pull both boxes. I am currently unsure of what kind of power the vehicle is putting down. I know car was worked on at JMB performance, but I have been unable to contact anyone at their shop to see what kind of history the car has.

    New plugs were just installed. Steve recommended to go with the Gen III plugs, so thats what I put in. Old plug that came out was very clean, but had a severe burn hole in the side electrode. I have heard Quality wires and Scott Performance wires are several common replacements. Spark was good and bright on the new plug at #2 cylinder.

    At this time, I am leaning towards a fuel issue not a spark issue.

    Do you happen to have the P/N of the O rings? I want to do a few more tests before I send them off.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellowviper View Post
    Well...if it was running with the VEC and impedance box, can I infer it was not running stock injectors? No need for the impedance box with stock injectors and I would also infer the VEC was being used for a more custom tune than anything else....no reason for it if not running a modified tune and/or other low impedance injectors. SO many unanswered questions here regarding your issue....
    I am unsure if injectors are stock. Would I know by the P/N listed on the side?

  9. #9
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    Not going to argue which direction to go - fuel or ignition - as troubleshooting something like this over the internet is half skill and half luck, but if you don't know the history of simple and inexpensive parts like plugs and wires, why wouldn't you ensure that they are new, premium quality parts.

    It's good to know that you will follow the sheep for the wires. Just because everyone else is doing it is a personal choice. Most people think that taking any factory part off and replacing it with anything other than stock, regardless of if it is actually designed and built better than the factory part, that that action is called an upgrade by default. I know where quality wires are made, what they cost to make, and it's another product whereas people are constantly following the sheep. The factory parts are better. Aftermarket upgrade parts are a downgrade based on my experience.

    The injector orings are -117 and -203. The fuel line is -903. Use brown FKM.
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  10. #10
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    as a note on this, i dont think your number 2 injector was stuck open. When you popped the injector out of the fuel rail, all the fuel remaining in the rail would have dumped into the now open hole.
    Dave
    98 Viper GTS

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave6666 View Post
    Not going to argue which direction to go - fuel or ignition - as troubleshooting something like this over the internet is half skill and half luck, but if you don't know the history of simple and inexpensive parts like plugs and wires, why wouldn't you ensure that they are new, premium quality parts.

    It's good to know that you will follow the sheep for the wires. Just because everyone else is doing it is a personal choice. Most people think that taking any factory part off and replacing it with anything other than stock, regardless of if it is actually designed and built better than the factory part, that that action is called an upgrade by default. I know where quality wires are made, what they cost to make, and it's another product whereas people are constantly following the sheep. The factory parts are better. Aftermarket upgrade parts are a downgrade based on my experience.

    The injector orings are -117 and -203. The fuel line is -903. Use brown FKM.
    Stock wires are no longer available. I was just listing the 2 aftermarket options I was aware of, so it was more so listed as a question of any different aftermarket wires or any personal preference on your end. I will be replacing the wires, but need to know which ones are preferred since stock are no longer an option. As I have stated, I put new plugs in twice now, and checked the spark. So should I replace them a third time?

    Thank you for the shortcut with the O rings. They come in large bag sizes, so I'll have some extras.

  12. #12
    I'm a new viper owner (1.5 yr) and had no knowledge about vipers prior to owning this one (2002 GTS), but mine came with a ROE supercharger and VEC box. I developed a cyl 2 misfire as well. I worked with Scott at ROE as well, 1st thing he told me was removed that VEC and impedance box as they are known to fail and its just a matter of time (not if but when), due to the circuit not being potted so over time they fail due to moisture.

    He told me to remove the boxes (he gave me instructions) and I would have to replace all the injectors as the impedance would be difference.

    I bought an injector tester on eBay and a set of injectors lights bulbs (not sure the correct name for those). Both test items were under $20 off eBay. I found with the injector bulbs plugged in, that cyl #2 was getting power ALL the time (bulb was lite at all time). Also found injector was dead (likely due to bad signal over time).

    In the end; I removed the VEC boxes, replaced all injectors, all spark plugs, all wires, and all coils. All were supplied by ROE. He also sent me a pre-programed SCT tuner with a tune for my supercharger. With my amateur abilities, I was able to do all the work and car runs great now.

  13. #13
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    Noid light = injector light bulb. Maybe I'll put noid lights on all my injectors so I can watch the light show...eh, too poser for me. I have seen motorcycle plug wires that illuminate when fired. Again, sort of gay in my opinion. But I digress...

  14. #14
    Noid lights are loan a tool at auto stores if you don't want to buy them no matter if they cost $15 or so.

  15. #15
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    Copy that on the Noid lights. I'm currently out of state, so I will have to rent them when I get back. I will keep you all updated on the progress.

  16. #16
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    Fuel, Spark, Compression.

    Chasing 2 issues at the same time is never fun. First - the injector issue. Never good if the engine abruptly stopped and you think it was caused by the stuck open injector causing hydrolock. That injector would appear to be shot. Hopefully I'm not hitting the panic button and it's not the case - and as you said that injector came from #2 - if there was a violent hydrolock on that cylinder - did it cause something bad - like a hole in the piston? Do you have a compression tester to test cylinder 2, 4, 6?

    Next - can you re-test for spark on number 2? You changed plugs, so is it a wire or coil issue - or does it come back to vec/impedance box?

    Good luck.
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  17. #17
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    There has been a lot of progress since 4 days ago.

    With some help from Steve, I was able to confirm that the stock injectors are installed in the car. The O-rings from McMaster Carr came in. They didnt have the -117 brown FKM ones that Dave6666 recommended, but did have the black ones. While I had the #2 and #6 injectors out, I cleaned them with some solvent and blew some compressed air through them before reinstalling.

    I was able to removed both the VEC and impedance boxes, and got all the wiring back where it belongs.

    After removing the boxes, I decided to try and run the engine before testing the injector leads. It started very rough, but finally came into a smooth idle. The #2 cylinder is alive again, however now it is intermittently firing. The reason I say this, is because the temp will rise on the header to 400 degrees and then fall back down to 285. Whereas before removing the boxes, the header never got above 150 degrees.

    So I checked the injector lead and found that it is getting good signal. So I am knocking out one problem at a time, as this appears to be a multi-faceted issue. Against the wishes of my wife, I am going to go ahead and order new spark plug wires. I have looked online, but still haven't found any stock MOPAR ones.

    I did pick up a compression tester when I picked up the NOID lights, so I will check the compression for peace of mind while I wait on the wires to get here.

  18. #18
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    SMP was the OEM for many of the Chrysler electrical items for the Gen 1/2 period. Rock Auto sells the SMP branded wires for $28.79 per set, which also cross reference the Mopar p/n 4883365AA. Since Chrysler is only required to support the Viper for 10 years after the end of production, they are likely no longer stocking them.

    I just ordered a set from RA. I'll see if just like most of the other SMP items I have, if they come in with Mopar markings on them.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave6666 View Post
    SMP was the OEM for many of the Chrysler electrical items for the Gen 1/2 period. Rock Auto sells the SMP branded wires for $28.79 per set, which also cross reference the Mopar p/n 4883365AA. Since Chrysler is only required to support the Viper for 10 years after the end of production, they are likely no longer stocking them.

    I just ordered a set from RA. I'll see if just like most of the other SMP items I have, if they come in with Mopar markings on them.
    I was able to get the wires ordered off of RockAuto. But just an FYI for anyone looking to replace theirs too, they did not list for my year. I had to "backdoor" the parts search. The SMP wires are listed as P/N 6922.

    I wasn't able to get the compression tested before returning to work this week. But will be home on Tuesday.

  20. #20
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    I'm not one to throw the "parts cannon" trying to fix a problem, and it seems like you're playing russian roulette if you're putting the injector that you say you diagnosed as filling the cylinder to the point that it caused hydrolock back on the engine.
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